Reply With QuoteDid Isac sing with Gloria Gaynor at some stage?
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James Brown rightfully deserves a lot of credit for his musical output and influence . The " Godfather of Soul" ... absolutely. "Soul Brother #1 " ....sure.
When it came to makin' it funky .... he said it loud.
But ..... James Brown .... " The Original Disco Man" ??
........... Don't think so .....
That distinction goes to ........Isaac Hayes . 8)
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Did Isac sing with Gloria Gaynor at some stage?
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I think the title "The Original Disco Man" needs to be viewed in it's context.I would agree that Isaac Hayes may have been one of the originators of the disco sound.However James Brown's funk numbers were by far more prevalent in the disco playlists of the early to mid seventies.I think that was what JB was refering to and not that he originated the disco sound since he was strictly funk.
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Yes! They recorded together Barry White's song "You're The First, The Last, My Everything". It was in a Gloria Gaynor's album, and it's credited as "Gloria Gaynor Feat. Isaac Hayes"Originally Written by discodevil
You can listen to it here:
http://200.154.150.26/includes/inter...php?id_art=539
It's a very cheap recording. No real instruments, all synth. Actually, her whole album was recorded that way.
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.... which is precisely my point.
Do you think so ?? .... I recall at best they received light play . I believe James Brown's tunes barely managed to scratch the bottom of the disco charts. One major reason his tunes at that time didn't do so well on the dancefloor was because he apparently wasn't too interested in trying to fuse his own trademark sound with the emerging dance sounds of the 70's...... ( which was not very "discoman" of him !"However James Brown's funk numbers were by far more prevalent in the disco playlists of the early to mid seventies.
James Brown had his shtick down pat way before disco. And when he saw it coming .... he didn't embrace it.... didn't explore it.... didn't incorporate any of its characteristics into his music. He persisted with his own sound all the way through the disco era . He opted for a musical world that coexisted with disco . ( You could even say he remained in a total funk !! :roll: :P )
Nothing wrong with that either ... ....but to resist the trend , to maintain an older funk formula throughout the mid and late 70's and then to later claim to have also been the original discoman....
:P :P :P ...
Isaac Hayes though .... when listening to his inventive music from 1970-73... it's evident that he's exploring and developing some distinctive musical notions that would in a few years come to be identified as " disco". 8)
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In the early '70s I had more James brown records in my record boxes than any other single artist!! He was essential for the dancefloor and he did embrace Disco to some extent (e.g. For Goodness Sakes, Take A look At Those Cakes, Get Up Offa That Thing [pure hi hat driven hustle?]). His self proclaimed 'King of this' or 'Godfather of that' didn't fool anyone at the time. We all looked upon them with a certain amount of amusement, but with a knowing nod to the man's unprecedented credentials. Let's face it, Disco emerged from Funk as well as Philly, so he has a rightful place as one of the 'inventors' of what would become known as Disco.
It's less easy to see the connection now, after 30 years, but at the time he had more danceable records under his belt, in more styles than anyone else. He did move with the times....maybe sometimes he was just too hip!
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Well no wonder ... he pumped out at least one new one per month !! . Over here, as disco became the dancefloor focus , James Brown , with his well-worn funk formula and his unwillingness to incorporate even the slightest amount of euro or philly disco to his sound left him to be viewed , in some of the more hip DJ circles, as the original disco anti-christ!
OK, seriously .... no one guy was the original discoman ....and James Brown had a danceable groove that of course contributed in some ways to what would lead to disco.
STILL, I venture to say there is little about hard-core disco that would evoke an "aha !! James Brown!" response in the final analysis. James Brown had his own little funky niche he established in the 60's and he didn't venture very far from it over the years. It took others to advance the dance groove into something else, the sound categorized as disco.
Brown would have been an apparent play in the 60's-- on into the 70's . I'd be far more impressed if you said you had a bunch of Isaac Hayes' records in those crates too !! :P
Fair enough . ... one of the inventors , and in his case inventor with a small " i " .he has a rightful place as one of the 'inventors' of what would become known as Disco
But still, I'll put on Isaac Hayes' HOT BUTTERED SOUL (1969 !!!) or JOY(1973) and you put on any James Brown groove of your choice ...and we'll figure out who more accurately should have been calling themselves "The Original Discoman" in 1979.
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I can only speak as someone on the outside looking in because I wasn't around in the late 60s, early 70s when those guys were doing stuff that would be considered the roots of disco. James might have a case for claiming to the be the Original Disco Man, because his output was mostly dance oriented, whereas Isaac did more romantic balads, with funky undertones. I wouldn't doubt that his stuff from '69 and '70 would have been great to play in clubs, like Walk On By, but from my perspective, they were less clubby than James songs like 'Get Up ( I Feel Like Being A Sex Machine)', 'Soul Power', 'Give It Up Or Turnit Loose' (the 1970 version), or even earlier tracks like 'I Don't Want Nobody To Give Me Nothing' and instrumentals like 'The Popcorn'.
Isaac certainly cornered the funk with strings market early on with Theme From Shaft and Theme From The Men in '71/'72, but those were two songs versus James stuff from that time like 'Talkin Loud & Saying Nothing', 'I Got Ants In My Pants', and 'Get On The Goodfoot'.
But lets face it, James did Papa Was A Brand New Bag and Outa Sight in '64 which were protofunk records that would lead into stuff like Cold Sweat in '67, way before Isaac even did his first album. So he truly was the 'original disco man'.
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Wanna hear James brown's most danceable record pre Disco (apart from Sex machine), then check out There Was A Time?
That was sooooooo revolutionary when ot came out. Straight ahead 4/4 uptempo funk that really did the business.
There's no contest between Ike and JB. JB wins hands down when it comes to danceability. Ike was not much more than a cabaret act by comparison.
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And it was a live recording. I don't know if it was done that way in a previous concert or if it was a spur of the moment, but it was essentially a reworking of the outro to Let Yourself Go. I think The Dapps played on that track, because there was a version of that recording that had a sax solo (no vocals) that was credited to the Dapps, which was an all-white group led by Beau Dollar. It's on this compilation. If you listen carefully you can hear James vocals faintly, so I think the sax was overdubbed later:
Nothing But The Funk Vol. 3
It also appeared on the 'It's A Mother' album under a different title, and it had lyrics like 'hey hey, I feel alright one time' which cued the band to hit the notes. I think it was called 'Little Groove Maker'. The band plays quietly behind JB, not the full onslaught of the regular version.
Disco Funk
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Alright ..... I'm not through here yet !!! :P
Should I take it then , from the lack of response ... not too much Isaac Hayes in the ol' record crate box ......???
OK .... yes those are ..... "protofunk " records .... but I'm talkin' disco here .....
Danceability ? .... again ... I'm specificically addressing the concept of "disco". Heck .... Glenn Miller and Tex Ritter had even more danceability than James Brown .... so , then what ??? :-?Quinny : There's no contest between Ike and JB. JB wins hands down when it comes to danceability"
Using this reasoning ... Chubby Checker trumps James Brown . That means Chubby Checker should have been calling himself the "original discoman" in 1979. .". James might have a case for claiming to the be the Original Disco Man, because his output was mostly dance oriented,.... that would lead into stuff like Cold Sweat in '67, way before Isaac even did his first album. So he truly was the 'original disco man'."
James Brown had a great dance groove .... but then .... so did Frankie and Annette ... ( check out those jumpin' beach parties. ) !! I 'm addressing who was most developing the elements in their musical style that would point to them as " the original discoman " .... disco .... not danceability .... not funk ......
I don't know the tune " THERE WAS A TIME ' but I assume that is the one you are choosing that exhibits James Brown at his most disco- est . Will be interesting to put it up alongside the music of Isaac Hayes . Several of Isaac's comps would work just fine ..... but I think I'll suggest "THEME FROM THE MEN " .....1972
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p.s. ------ PAPA WAS A BRAND NEW BAG ( wasn't that the Temptations / James Brown medley mix ??) :P :lol: .... 8)
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LOL! 'Papa Was A Brand New Bag', yes it was written by Norman Whitfield and James Brown.
I guess Chubby Checker could claim to be the original disco man, but we're comparing James and Isaac, and James' insistance that he was the original. I'd say he was doing uptempo disco tracks before Hayes. 'Talking Loud & Saying Nothing' from 1970 and 'I Got Ants In My Pants' and 'I'm A Greedy Man' from late 71/early 72, are good examples. I will admit that later 70s albums contained weak attempts at disco. If he had made more tracks like Body Heat I think he would have had good claim to a 'Godfather of Disco' claim. I think he lost a lot of steam by the mid 70s because everyone started leaving and he was running out of ideas, hence the various rip-off remakes like 'Monaurail (It's Not The Express)', which was a BT Express' 'Express', and 'Hot (I Need To Be Loved)' was a remake of David Bowie's 'Fame'.
I have to clarify 'There Was A Time'. It was taken from the Live At The Apollo 2 performance. The lyric in 'Little Groove Maker' is 'hey hey, I feel alright one time' then bang on the drum. The new Deluxe Ed CD release of that concert puts everything together - Let Yourself Go/There Was A Time/I Feel Alright - back into its original 17 minute plus length! At least, that's what the Amazon write-up says.
Disco Funk
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Remix your reading it wrong.Again let's address the context of the claim The Original Discoman.JB never said originator of the disco sound but "The Original Discoman" .I think the general consensus on this website is that the Disco era can basically defined as 1970-1979.Now take the formative years 1970-1974 and list for me how many Issac Hayes tunes would be floor jammers and compare it to how many JB tunes would be floor jammers. Don't forget you need to consider other artists he wrote for,performed with and produced such as The JB's and Lyn Collins.In that time period I would suggest that "Shaft" was the only floor jammer.As compared to at least a dozen or more JB numbers. Both artists were formulaic in their sound but defiantely JB qualifies as the most danceable. I think the claim is justified. IMHO
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I'll agree to the title of "Original NON -Disco Man" :P
..... James Brown may have had them on the floor in the earliest of the 70's ... but that was for the crowd stilll groovin' on the funk sounds carried over from the sixties ...
As disco continued to define itself ..... it displaced that sound .
Unlike many upcoming funksters ... James Brown resisted and dug in deeper into his established sound ... which worked for awhile ...
But the times were a changing ....
So that meanwhile .... everything fresh and ground breaking coming from the Isaac Hayes camp was capturing the imagination of the music innovators of that same early seventies period ..... They sucked up its sweetness like jasmine nectar ...... ( the sweetness was the weakness ... ) The original sounds , styles, and attitudes Isaac was introducing to music would then become the sound of Disco ( with a captal "D" ) ...
This sound was the new sound that then overrode and left behind a defiant non-disco ...... James Brown ....
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I didn't know about this consensus OBM ..... not sure I agree ..... but ... if I did .... hmmmm .... 1970 .....what happens in 1970 ... aha ! ..... Isaac Hayes!!.I think the general consensus on this website is that the Disco era can basically defined as 1970-1979.
1970 to 1974 .... aha again!! ... more Isaac Hayes !! 8)Now take the formative years 1970-1974
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I'd bet a dollar to a cent that Isaac Hayes was bought by middle aged reprobates more than hip teenagers and apart from the fact that much of his output in the early '70s had strings, I really don't see any connection ro Disco whatsoever. He was never anything more than lounge music by the '70s and he hardly made a mark on the Disco scene. Ike suffered in exactly the same way as James Brown in that both of them were unable (or unwilling) to fully embrace the Disco sound. He was already a has been by the time Disco really took off, just like James Brown.
However, Ike's best songs were recorded in the mid to late '60s, whereas James Brown's best toons were most definitely in the early to mid '70s.
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:roll: .....emmm.... in 1976 .... Isaac Hayes named an entire album DISCO CONNECTION
............... and later that same year on an album called Groove-A-Thon , he includes the song JUICY FRUIT (DISCO FREAK ).
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I think during the disco era Isaac Hayes did slightly better disco songs than James Brown. Disco Connection is any okay dance tune, not really 'true' disco. That same album had the track 'Disco Shuffle', which as you probably guessed is a shuffle, which isn't a disco-ey type of rhythm arrangement. Juicy Fruit is a syncopated funk jam, not really arranged like a disco tune.
I would say Isaac Hayes attempts at true disco were kind of like Barry White's attempts - kind of, but not really quite getting it down pat. It's the way they lay out their rhythm arrangements that make the songs sound more like up-tempo soul tracks instead of songs faithful to the disco genre.
Ike's later stuff seems to have a better hold of the genre, like the track 'I Ain't Never' and 'Love Has Been Good To Us' on 1980's And Once Again LP, but come across as stale and sanitized efforts.
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Hayes was influenced by Dionne Warwick and her songs with Burt Bacharach which is evidenced by him doing covers of her work.
James Brown was more funk and relied less on melody. Disco is dance music that places heavy emphasis on melody and counter-melodies like strings accompanied by elongated passages.
Disco tended to have more repeated phrasings every bar or couple of bars which is a characteristic of northern soul.
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That's right .... JB , as the original discoman :roll: , couldn't be bothered using a minor little disco component called .....strings !!!! :P
& then there was that other slight disco element that Isaac brought forth ...... the wah wah guitar ...
emmmmm :roll: ...... well, I witnessed those packed dance floors responding to a Barry White disco attempt :P ..... a little number called MY SWEET SUMMER SUITE .......
.... which quickly raced up the national disco chart to peak at its top position of #1 .... :roll:
Not a bad disco attempt ...... you gotta admit .....
But, I do agree with your comparison of Isaac Hayes with Barry White DF .... his music has the most obvious lineage to the Isaac Hayes sound ...... I didn't think there was any doubt about Barry White's massive disco contribution though . He's another one who readily deserves the "Original Disco Man " title ten fold before James Brown.....
My point isn't that Isaac Hayes put out the best disco music or had the sound mastered to perfection .... (although I think DON'T LET GO ranks as above outstanding ) . The point about his releasing albums or songs with titles like DISCO CONNECTION is as evidence that Isaac was far from being disdainful of , nor uninterested in , the genre .... (as one would expect of the original discoman ).....
---- I'm only arguing that of all the claims about James Brown by others (or himself :P ) ....... the least valid is that of "The Original Disco Man" .
That being the case .... it got me interested as to whom is better suited for the title .
When I trace back the sounds of disco I can find a blend of things happening musically in the early seventies converging toward "disco".
One of the most glaring is the work of Isaac Hayes .....
(can anyone name but a few other songs that so strongly stood out as distinctive and complex a groove as "SHAFT " 8) 8) :-? )
...... most particularly 1969's HOT BUTTERED SOUL LP .... because so much can be found in its musical structure that would go on to be incorporated into the disco sound . I can find nothing before that , that so radically twists the approach to pop music ..... that as single- handedly opened the gate toward arranging music in a manner that becomes disco. His influence on Norman Whitfield , Gamble And Huff , Meco, and of course, Barry White are, I contend , more than evident .
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:roll: .....emmm.... in 1976 .... Isaac Hayes named an entire album DISCO CONNECTION
............... and later that same year on an album called Groove-A-Thon , he includes the song JUICY FRUIT (DISCO FREAK ).
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I played both of these and both dated incredibly quickly, because they were already outdated when they were made. Groove-a-thon was nothing more than a Brass Construction rip off and Disco Connection a loose attempt at bringing Shaft a little more up to date IMO. Ike just didn't know how to deal with disco and was either pushed or rushed into trying to embrace it.
Hey, I've never said that JB was the original disco man or that I believed him when he proclaimed it, just that his catalogue of work was generally more danceable than Ike's and (as time and the countless samplings have proven) his work laid more dance foundations. Ike made some classic albums, but even Hot Buttered Soul was more or less outdated when released. He harked back to a much earlier time IMO.
BTW: Wah wah guitars were a staple diet of funk music way before Shaft, so you can't pin them onto Ike.
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Actually, some of the best disco music ever made didn't have any strings. Check out the stuff produced by Dexter Wansel on PIR, or heck, most of the stuff produced by Bunny Sigler - those guys didn't use strings, and they've got some of the baddest funky disco songs out there. A lot of the late 70s Archie Bell disco songs didn't have any strings. Going back a little earlier, songs on TK like Rock Your Baby by George McCrae, Gimme Some by Jimmy Bo Horne, or anything by KC & The Sunshine band didn't have any strings. Then you got cuts like 'Erucu' on the Mahogany Soundtrack, 'Scratchin' by The Magic Disco Machine - again, no strings.That's right .... JB , as the original discoman :roll: , couldn't be bothered using a minor little disco component called .....strings !!!! :P
& then there was that other slight disco element that Isaac brought forth ...... the wah wah guitar ...
As for the Wah guitar, Ike didn't introduce that to dance music. It was already around. That scratchy wah was already being used on tracks like Breakdown by Rufus Thomas back in 1970.
Barry White's sound was more of a synchopated funk soul with strings. Thumping dancefloor grooves weren't his speciality, even if he did get club-play. When I refer to true disco, I'm thinking about the four on the floor grooves that Philadelphia cornered the market on, and then later guys like Alec Constandinos and Cerrone drove right into the ground.emmmmm :roll: ...... well, I witnessed those packed dance floors responding to a Barry White disco attempt :P ..... a little number called MY SWEET SUMMER SUITE .......
.... which quickly raced up the national disco chart to peak at its top position of #1 .... :roll:
Not a bad disco attempt ...... you gotta admit .....
But, I do agree with your comparison of Isaac Hayes with Barry White DF .... his music has the most obvious lineage to the Isaac Hayes sound ...... I didn't think there was any doubt about Barry White's massive disco contribution though . He's another one who readily deserves the "Original Disco Man " title ten fold before James Brown.....
So while Barry White and Isaac Hayes both used wah wahs and strings, their songs were not pure disco (in terms of the genre) songs.
I don't think he had disdain for the disco genre. I just don't think Ike figured it out. Or he thought all he had to do was use a 2/4 drum beat, and that's all it was, which is what he did on Theme From The Men. The rhythm for disco tunes was a bit more intricate than that.My point isn't that Isaac Hayes put out the best disco music or had the sound mastered to perfection .... (although I think DON'T LET GO ranks as above outstanding ) . The point about his releasing albums or songs with titles like DISCO CONNECTION is as evidence that Isaac was far from being disdainful of , nor uninterested in , the genre .... (as one would expect of the original discoman ).....
---- I'm only arguing that of all the claims about James Brown by others (or himself :P ) ....... the least valid is that of "The Original Disco Man" .
That being the case .... it got me interested as to whom is better suited for the title .
When I trace back the sounds of disco I can find a blend of things happening musically in the early seventies converging toward "disco".
One of the most glaring is the work of Isaac Hayes .....
(can anyone name but a few other songs that so strongly stood out as distinctive and complex a groove as "SHAFT " 8) 8) :-? )
Shaft was a great soundtrack tune, and less than a minute of it had a dance beat, which could have been more like old motown than true disco. While I've read many books citing Shaft as the first disco tune, I think they're missing the point on what disco music really was all about. The roots of disco are a bit more complex, and while I do agree that elements of what Isaac Hayes and Barry White played influenced later artists, a lot of the birth of disco was based on pure funk which James Brown was the creator of.
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Norman Whitfield's psychedelic soul era happened at the same time as Hot Buttered Soul was released. I think his sound was more influenced by psychedelic rock, James Brown and Sly & The Family Stone. Gamble & Huff and Thom Bell were already doing uptempo soul numbers with strings in Philadelphia at that same time. I can't say where Meco's influences came from, perhaps more Philly than Ike. Of the people you've named, I do agree that Ike had a direct influence on Barry White....... most particularly 1969's HOT BUTTERED SOUL LP .... because so much can be found in its musical structure that would go on to be incorporated into the disco sound . I can find nothing before that , that so radically twists the approach to pop music ..... that as single- handedly opened the gate toward arranging music in a manner that becomes disco. His influence on Norman Whitfield , Gamble And Huff , Meco, and of course, Barry White are, I contend , more than evident .
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I think if anything, Isaac Hayes' main contribution to disco was probably long, musical opus. Before his album, soul albums were mainly made up of short songs (under 5 minutes or so). Ike probably got his cue to make longer songs from the prog-rock/psychedelic artists who were making single songs taking up whole album sides, like Iron Butterfly's In A Gadda Da Vida.
I'm glad we've had this long and sometimes 'heated' discussion. Its made me think more about the roots of disco, and I've realized that disco was not just the invention of one guy or one song, but a series of experiments and merging of sounds to create the genre we all know and love. Heck, one could even argue that the Hi Records tunes by Al Green were pre-cursors to disco. I'm so Tired of Being Alone came out before Shaft and has a danceable beat similar to what one would find in later disco tunes. In the end, we'll probably never resolve who was the true 'original disco man'. But from my point of view a lot of the disco rhythm was based on the works of James Brown, and he deserves the title, at least when compared to Isaac Hayes.
Disco Funk
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Don't bow out yet DF ! The Isaac Hayes DISCO CONNECTION ..... is yet to be fully explored !!! :D I'm not about to let the real original disco man get the SHAFT if I can help it !! :P
(I hope by heated ...you don't mean my impassioned positions are being received ( by you or anyone else ) as anything other than as good, hearty, disco sparring 8) )
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I'm curious to know your timeline for the "disco"era.If you'd be so kind as to list the dominance of Mr.Hayes tunes that were on the disco playlists next to Mr.Brown's in the time period 1970-1974 I might see things in a different light.*****
I didn't know about this consensus OBM ..... not sure I agree ..... but ... if I did .... hmmmm .... 1970 .....what happens in 1970 ... aha ! ..... Isaac Hayes!!
1970 to 1974 .... aha again!! ... more Isaac Hayes !! 8)
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And as Disco Funk alluded to much original disco music included non string production and arrangements and comprised mostly funk,soul and r&b.
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I just remembered another James Brown disco tune from the early days (recorded in June of '74) - "Rock Me Again & Again...." which he recorded with Lyn Collins. It's a got a funky groove, and a pulsing disco beat.
Disco Funk
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The point here is not that strings are required within disco music .... ( yep , lots of great stuff without 'em 8) ) but rather that they are a strong component within the disco sound overall.
IE....when coming home from a night in a disco back then .... one thing that might have stood out in one's half-drunken brain about the night's glorious music was the preponderance of strings in the music throughout the night .
Conversely ... when discussing a funk artist .... the funk sound ..... strings are not likely to be mentioned as a major component. Strings were not forbidden ... but were much more likely to be absent in the works of such performers .... particularly the non-disco ones like ............James Brown ......
Also :
I looked at Marky's current compilation chart (Chart #83 --- May 22, 1976) ... and nine out of these classic top ten songs ( 90 % !!! )... contain strings .... so to say strings weren't a significant part of disco's sound ...
well ...... :P :P :P !!
http://www.discomusic.com/forums/vie...1990&start=120
If I'm not mistaken ... only Jesse Green's terrific NICE AND SLOW is without strings ....
and even his spry little number , which emphasizes a flute , is more Miami TK or Van McCoy sounding ..... and thus still far and away from being anything James Brown like ... !!!!
In conclusion, surely then , the true Original Discoman would've had a strong affiliation with the use of this most significant of disco elements : ..... strings
..... as, of course , was indeed the case with Isaac Hayes who consistently swirled them in and about so seductively within his epic pieces.
8)
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