*** Forum Leader / Moderator ***
Forget The Hummer-Here's the Kombat T98
Okay, the Hummer was cool, was big and I said was.
Because the Russians are coming: they're promoting their Kombat T98 that's bigger, more expensive and uses more gallons than ever before.
I just wonder, except for the Governator, who buys this stuff for private use? Paul?
No Longer Charting
That the new bootlegger's wheels for downtown Moscow?
Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
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....................................LUKE !!! ....... I'M YOUR FATHER !!! ......................
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Platinum Record [Level 8]
I saw one of those things in Helsinki. The brutal looking war machine/car was parked outside a five star hotel, naturally so that it blocked the entrance to the car park. If Russians got something they sure make sure you see it, be it a plump wannabe model girlfiend in a too tight leopard skin outfit and a massive fur hat, or a new pair of sunglasses with the label sticker still on despite the fact that it partly obscures the view, or whatever drug money can buy. The companies that are called to tow away cars are sometimes known to inflict a scratch or two in the paint so maybe the owner of the Kombat will just leave it where it has been taken and buy a new one when he gets home, instead of ordering his minions to kill the offenders with an Uzi.
No Longer Charting
Just like Hip-Hop here in the USA! :lol:If Russians got something they sure make sure you see it, be it a plump wannabe model girlfiend in a too tight leopard skin outfit and a massive fur hat, or a new pair of sunglasses with the label sticker still on despite the fact that it partly obscures the view, or whatever drug money can buy.
Chart Hit [Level 6]
Well, if it's as well-made as their Lada brand, just don't kick the tires, because the thing will fall apart . The Russians have been consistently known for poor engineering and 3rd-world quality control.
The thing is probably parked aside the road because it broke down leaving the shop.
PS: when the USSR ceased to exist as such, and Russia opened to the western world, the Moscow police department had to find a way of keeping up with the thugs, now driving high-end Mercedes, BMWs, Audis, and Cadillacs, as their Ladas (based on the design of a small family car by Fiat from the '70s) could not compete. They renewed their patrol force with US-imported Ford LTD Crown Victorias (w/ Police Interceptor packages). Does anyone know what they drive now?
No Longer Charting
I thought they bought back a **** load of Trabants from the East Krauts...:lol: :lol: :lol:
Acetate [Level 1]
Originally Written by KoolChris
Look, LADA cars where more than fine.
In fact the old "classic" lada is:
"one of the most successful cars in history" -> and not just wikipedia states that.
Just to give you and example, 20 years is nothing in the life of a lada if You take good care.. Wich means checking the oil levels, and water 2 times a year. I know this from practice.
Those are not just cars. They have almost no deamd like mules. When they where made, the germans have made the TRABANT, wich is by far the most useless things I ever seen in life. Ofcourse later BMW and AUDI made better and better cars, and LADA was getting slow compared to them.
Yupp, they are not fast, and don't look like a durable thing. But they are.
"Lada is unique in being the only car brand found on every continent of the world, including Antarctica (where the Russian research base used Lada Nivas)."
is a fact too. Be sure to see that the cars are identical, no country or continent has its own modification.
They do not preform GOOD anywhere, but they are usable ANYWHERE.
Unlike american cars. How much they last? 4-5 years? maybe less?
Lada is like a ghost rider. Kepps going on even without its head.
Allso notice the good old NIVA. You can't outrun that in offroad, thats for sure. I had one of them, the old carburator one. Well.... I did pull out a few rangerowers, bmw SUVs, the nearby small mountain is visited by tourists quite often. Almost as often as they get stuck in mud. Notice that my dad is a forrester, My country did try many types of vehicles to replace the lada niva, but could not find any that can whitstand the rude roads of the forrests. To give You an idea how a forrest road looks like watch this video:
YouTube - Papay Trophy 2007
what You think, after a nice rain how it looks?
The niva My dad uses EVERY single day to drive approximetly 8-10 Km a day on roads like that is 8 years old now. Engine never had a problem (same as in the classic model) suspension is getting a bit crap.
Parts that fail in every 2-3 weeks:
1. clutch,
2. lights (they are broken LOL...)
3. igiteing system (gets too wet, no mather how well I seal it.. )
4. exhaust system (for some *strange* reason we allways loose it...)
other things:
2 set of tires a year, we did try some aftermarket tires, but they downgrade the capabilities of the niva to a state unusable...
Toyota :
well, they did try one, first week the transmission went bye bye...
After a few bigger mudholes the rear suspension was broken,
and after about 4 weeks the front axels gave it up...
The stearing connector rod had to be replaced, as it did not last for a day.
No problem, we made a DIY rod there, Toyota has some things to learn LOL..
As offroader... weellllll... I was not impressed, about 80% of what niva can do easily.. Not to mention that for the price of a gearbox we had to get in order to fix the toyota, a new engine + gearbox + clutch + exhaust system can be bought for the niva, LOL..
To give an idea, the gearbox costs 200,000 Ft in my country for the Toyota, and a clutch + gearbox costs 30-45,000 Ft for the niva. The clutch main piston (the thing that we change often in the niva...) is about 5000 Ft...
After all, I have to say russian engeneering is like ORCish stuff, until You don't ask why is it working, and You want something that won't broke down, don't buy any other brand.
An other impressive monster they make are KRAZ.
http://modellbau-universe.de/uploadf...l/ekl_7201.jpg
see Your self, go search for it. Is the king of the damn hill. If world war 3 would start I would :
1. get a niva, and get it FAST
2. get the KRAZ 255/B military rough terrain version, and park the niva on it
3. Get a good old AK-47 (the most durable weapon history knows)
And thats all..
Some other facts about russian LADA:
Being exported worldwide in the 1980s and '90s, the Lada was a big earner of foreign hard currency for the hard pressed Soviet economy, and was also used in barter arrangements in some countries. Over 3/5ths of Lada production was exported.
OVER 18 milion lada classics are sold world wide, keep that in mind.
In March 2008, Renault announced that they were purchasing 25% of Lada's assets, a $US1 billion deal
////// why would renault buy ****? LOLzz..
Lada is part of the world's third largest automotive group (after General Motors and Toyota, no one else is bigger than them)
AND SO ON.
They are well made cars, well made means to me that it is durable, and won't leave You in ****.
These things have been made out of a small budget, and are cheap cars.
The KOMBAT is not cheap, so I bet it is a well made car, from the size I suspect not a good offroader.. (long distance between axles are not likely good in offroad, thats why hummers, lincoln navigators, ford broncos, and other things just won't be able to drive off road... sadly.. I love looks of a bronco..(the old bronco))
It has an american engine, should do fine (vortec is a durable thing, I love them, seen a few cars with simular engines)
So basicly the design is russian, but the materials are not. That can make the KOMBAT a verstile thingy. I would like to try a non-bulletproof version, maybe they release a version for those who have limit in terms of cash.
I gona make sure to have one of these :)
I like the looks, if You search the net some pics can be found showing the under side of the car and the suspension, for me it looks durable, roboust, and well made.
and please, before stating that russioans don't know how to build cars, read, go visit Your local niva fan club. You can find those clubbs anywhere.
Just go and take a look at the roads they cross, and ask try to follow them with.. any other car made.
Chart Hit [Level 6]
Hello 2457, and welcome aboard.
I read your post, as it was a direct response to my comments, and must say I can't agree with most of your explanations. I'll try to explain why.
Being "successful" and widespread does by no means imply the car was better than others, or even by any means good.
First, the Lada "classic" was old italian engineering, not russian. So props should be given to those responsible.
Second, of course Ladas were successful, as they had a large, captive market. Most communist countries at the time were not even open to other brands (the eastern block), or relied on their main ally to get affordable vehicles (Cuba, Mozambique, Angola, China, etc...). In these cases, people were considered militants, not consumers. You bought a Lada if you could afford one, because it was the only vehicle available to you (closed market), AND because it supported the big brothers (the Russians). The USSR also funded fellow marxist countries scattered throughout Africa, Asia, and the Americas, so it was only normal these dependant countries recieved Ladas, as they didn't have an automobile industry of their own to support.
Ladas even had support in some Western countries, where competition was "open"*, in the members of the then-large local Communist parties, and Communist trade-unions. Italy had a very important Communist party after WWII, well into the '80s; so did France (to a lesser extent), with a Parti Communiste consistently weighing in at 25% of the electorate, and the CGT (communist trade-union), being the largest, and representing the majority of factory workers. In those times, many Communist organizations looked up to Moscow, and owning a Lada was a brand of loyalty to the "cause". Many factory workers were either downright marxist, or sympathetic to the cause. Not to mention the many so-called marxist intellectuals, who shared that sympathy. This massive support only started a decline with the Czekoslovakia events, and the sudden realization in many that the once-admired laborer's dictatorship was also an imperialist, that it didn't hesitate to crush the democratic struggle of a supposedly independent people, and that such military action could also apply to others next.
I'm only mentioning individual consumers' support in Western Countries because it had a notable influence on sales, and that that selling power was based on support for a doctrine, not the objective value of the Lada line compared to others... Let's not forget at the time, the secondary sector of the economy (manufacturing) was the largest in western Europe, was heavily politicized and unionized, and that in its ranks, the communist ideal (or should it be called Utopia?) was an actual ideal, people were willing to live by. In France, "le grand soir" (the revolution) was an actual expectation within some in the working class, and the term soon became mainstream.... By the '90s, things had deeply changed, and today's society has very little to do with that period, between the end of WWII, and the collapse of the Soviet empire. If you came to political consciousness (or awareness) in the '90s, you have no idea what things were like, or the support the local communist parties and unions, and by extension, the USSR had from within the working class, that applied to those consumer goods available in the West. Lada was one of those goods, and probably the most noticeable means of show of support...
Comparing Ladas (the Niva model, which I've driven, and hope to never have to again) to current SUVs is not a valid argument, as these SUVs, as fashion & status statements, are meant to drive comfortably above the rest of the highway traffic, not climb over obstacles. Although Lincoln Navigators or BMW X5s will keep running, they will get stuck in slippery situations. The lighter, tiny in comparison Niva will have better chances of getting out of a mud trap, but will more likely be a victim to breakdowns due to poor manufacturing or engineering.
Defeating obstacles depends on the correct weight/power ratio, strength of stressed components, ground clearance, and tire design, among other factors. And Navigators and Nivas are NOT in the same category by any means. Try comparing to a 40-year-old International Harvester (iH) Scout, or its brother, the mk1 Ford Bronco, which, however heavier, are closer to the simplicity and weight of the Niva. The same goes for early Jeeps, Land Rovers, and their japanese copy, the Toyota Land Cruiser mk3. The US backwoods, fields, and mountains are full of such vehicles, and simpler pick-ups, and most of these guys seem to swear by their Chevys or Fords... Whoever is right, of the Chevy worshippers or the Niva fan-clubs you mentioned, I don't know. All I can say is that these types of vehicles have very strong followers, and the Americans I know who are into such activities, are very loyal to their brand, and would trade for nothing else in the world (except maybe a Hummer). I think mentioning a Niva would be taken as an insult, and would likely get you shot.
The Hummer H1 is a totally foreign concept altogether, Its massive power, size, and price tag are in the opposite league. Although in terms of being off-road worthy, I would definitely prefer an H1, unless driving through backwoods where the difference in width would be critical.
Rolling Living-rooms like the Navigator, Escalade, Range Rover, although worthy, are not designed with the same constraints and objectives as the Niva, and shouldn't be a basis of comparison..
Would Renault buy ****? They make ****. The Logan, although a good seller (cheap car), will probably not be road-worthy, or even working some years from now. I'm not saying the whole line is crap, but not up to the standards they try to compete with.
Renault tried entering the US market in the '80s, by buying out the sick AMC, and sacrificing it to use its distribution network, selling upgraded cars made for the upscale (as compared to the french market then) US market. The effort failed, due to very poor engineering, many recalls, and the very fast growing reputation for poor quality cars. And these cars were specifically made for the demanding US market, with special efforts on quality control!! Part of the problem, apart from cheap materials and bad engineering, was the fact they tried out all these new upgrade perks AS they were making the cars, not before. Power windows, convertible tops, and many automated, electronic systems hadn't been tried & proofed correctly before manufacturing, as they weren't part of the Renault culture & market, and simply would break down as soon as they were used...
When my father bought a new Jeep (AMC/Renault at the time) Cherokee in 1984, he had to bring it back to the shop many times for repairs (parts failures). He was soon told, very basically, that his Jeep would become reliable, as soon as the parts the French insisted on making in Renault factories had all run out, and been changed against older US-made stock. Funny thing, events proved the mechanics right. Renault being a government-owned company at the time (Louis Renault collaborated with the Nazis, so his company was confiscated by the french government at the end of the war), giving work to french workers was an integral part of official policy-making. When the AMC purchase was completed, many small parts were adapted from existing Renault parts, or re-engineered to be made in France. Those were apparently the unreliable ones, and as it turns out, most had to be rapidly replaced....
Your comment on American cars lasting "4-5 years, maybe less", is evidently a pleasantry. And I will obviously take it as such. Although I agree many manufactured goods are made to last fewer years now as opposed to several decades ago, you musn't confuse purchasing habits, and a very healthy second-hand market, with the need to replace faulty goods.
I won't go over the baby-boomers' effect on consumer trends, the unheard-of-before technological advances, and the general youth, growth and wealth in the US population between the '50s & the '70s, but here are some of the effects: In the US, for decades, automobile models would change every 1 to 2 years, both technically and cosmetically, to regenerate the demand, keep up with consumers' trends, and the need to have something NEW, hence the fact model years are still available the year before. If you wanted to be hip, you wanted next year's car, not this year's. Your car spoke of your personnality. If you drove a new, striking, classy, expensive, big car, that's the kind of guy you were. If you drove an outdated car, you were cheap, and not a part of the space-age, or atomic-age, depending on the era. Cars were bought new, and sold on to poorer people, often newly-arrived immigrants** or rurals. American cars were typically big, luxurious (compared to any other cars in the world), and underpowered, given the engine's huge nominal size. The reason? Large, open spaces, and long distances to be travelled. Big, low -revving engines could drive across the continent's open straights, deserts, or mountain roads without heating, or a breakdown. Soft shocks and thick upholstery allowed to do it in full comfort. Trying the same with the smaller, perkier euro engines wasn't even imaginable. Not from the engine, and not for the driver's back.
You still see millions of old american cars around, owned by poor people by necessity, or collectors by passion. Despite the disposable character of the American consumer, many passionate collectors are now pulling cars out of barns, swamps, or fields they were abandoned in, and restored. Once again, if a car was 10 years old, had dents in its body from accidents, and had a blown gasket, it was deemed good to throw away or abandon on the roadside or in a vacant lot, although easily repairable. New cars were affordable, and if you were in high school, college, or even a worker, you didn't want to be seen in an old, beat-up car, even if it was a solid runner.
Cuba, in a different context, still today, is a museum for the 1950s American car, maintained with no parts.
Is Lada now part of VAG, or Ford? I don't see how it's part of the 3rd automotive group otherwise, or even how that position would be relevant to the brand's quality.
*(some had VERY protectionist policies towards US imports, e.g. France: in the '80s, US cars imported to France were applied an import tax of 100% (VAT was added later!!); French cars imported to the US had an 8% duty). More open markets, like Belgium, Germany, Switzerland, and Scandinavian countries had an impressive share of American cars, despite competition from german automobiles made locally, and a then-strong US Dollar.
** The whole low-rider scene was mostly a latino youth thing, mostly cholos from Mexico, who transformed the cheaper, older, yet stylish & powerful cars they could afford, and made them special, adding Cragar rims, lowering the chassis, even if it meant riding around with gray primer all over the body until they could save up for a nice paint job...
Last edited by KoolChris; August 2nd, 2008 at 07:56 AM.
...Boogie Boogie Boogie Boogaaaaaay.....
*** Forum Leader / Moderator ***
OMG, guys, you both would be great essay-writers! Well done!
I'll keep it short:
I always had a crush on the NIVA, which was in fact an excellent off-roader:
Like Chris says, the well known Lada is in fact a Fiat, made under license by Lada. Just like the old Renault 12 model was resurrected in Rumania by Dacia,
which now is funny enough making very cheap new Renault models under the name Dacia Logan and they are very popular over here.
Many of my friends drove Russian and Eastern-European cars BITD. They sure weren't luxurious but...they did the job, especially in the winters. A BARKAS Van always started even in the coldest weather:
And speaking about Lada, they are now working on this 1 :icon_eek:
Acetate [Level 1]
Yes, Lada has strong roots with Fiat.
But italian cars are not the ones to get, unless You like broking down every 10,000 km or so.
My aim was to show You, that russian engeneering may seem rubbish, usless, "orcish" but it does the job.
Not even today's high-tech real offroader can be more trusted than a good old lada. Thats a fact. And even if something breaks, usual a hammer is enough tool to fix it.
By the way, over 3/5ths of Lada production was exported, many to even countrys that where NOT part of the communist trade alliance.
(trust me, I live in a post-communist country)
niva as driveing experience.. Well, on tramac it is a disaster, i must agree.
on everything else, IT JUST ROCKS as soon as You explore the edge of its abilitys.
Key factor of these cars are ease of maintanance, and roboust design.
Even older design cars won't outlast lada.
These are facts, and compared to todays computer controlled card, i prefer this.
The KOMBAT T-98 seems to combine the need of both of us.
Is still roboust, and russian engeneering IS ment to make things that LAST for a decade at minimum. Engines where not too powerfull, but the KOMBAT has a vortec engine, as far as I know they are well made.
You see, even if lada is based on fiat, look at the lifecycle of a fiat, and look at the life cycle of a lada. Some of them still serve -even close to 20 years running- in mines, that terrain kills most cars.
Do not forget, russia is still big, if they make a car for russia, it has to be able to whitstand extreme cold, extreme hot, and be usefull at places where even the word "road" or "tramac" is just a legend.
Most cars demand "special" service regulary with "gizmoz and gandgets" for insane prices, russen "teknology" does not suffer from this.
And I do hope the KOMBAT T-98 will be just like that.
Minimum maintainance, and the option to DIY service it if Your in s#hit.
You did mention fans of the old bronco, and other SIMULAR vehicles, well, You will never ever see any like this for the "high-tech-gizmo" stuff cars most manufacturers make. Thats becouse there is absolute nothing to love in them.
Older cars, like the dodge charger (60-70) the bronco, the good old caddilac eldorado, and simular cars are not too different from russian products, they share the same "reapirable by a hammer" style like russian cars.
My brother owns a peugeott 406, good car, HDI engine, comfortable, I sometimes drive it. Yes, after thatone it is surely a pain to sit in a good niva. For about 5 minutes, tramac in my country is not the best, road quality is .. sadly poor. So while I have to watchout if I drive a nice car. But not with a lada "classic" or a niva, it just don't makesense. :)
well, thats all.
Let's hope the KOMBAT did not become one of the japanees-chinees-USA type "plastic toy gizmo" cars, and then it WILL BE sucessful, just like any other well made russian car.
Think of it, even nowdays lada has a constant sale, and it keeps its place in the industry, and the communism is OVER, so the products are not forced to people. So, I question You how come?
Suzuki and other "yellow plastic boxes" are a LOT cheaper, and the engine in the suzuki is surprizeingly good, while other brands are "better" in many ways.
How come Lada is still a compeditive car??
The chassy changed allmost nothing over the years, the engines did only improve enough to fit emission standards, ask Your self how come?
well, I given the answer, if Your not blind You will spot it.
Simplicity + roboust design + cheap prices + low maintainance + long life cycle = well made car. Even I would argue whit this, but most consumers have a need for only these things.
An other word about russian "teknology" could You tell me wich nation is the most advanced with space "teknology" ? I think the MIR had to be SHOT DOWN well after its life cycle, since directing it to orbit would not burn it.
An other one, just for You:
in hungary there is a nuclear plant, at Paks. It is famous, as its a twin design to the chernobil one wich had melted down.. Now, this plant still functions, and it has passed its original life cycle 2 times by now, and still is europes safest nuclear power plant. (french people did state it too, after visiting it a few times, in order to shot it down.. then they realised that its safer than most french power plants, LOL)
so do not say russian tek is rubbish. There are endless examples showing that they are well made, only the design criteria is not the same as in the USA for example.
Russian makes things that last, USA makes things that " BLING ".
Thats the difference, a russian weapon for example like the good old AK.47 has a kickback that may broke Your arm, but under no conditions will it jam.
Allso is a heavy one compared to others, but works anywhere, anytime.
You can shoot with it. Thats what it was designed for. (and is the most popular weapon of its kind) unlike the M16 , they are lighter, more accurate, and bla-bla-bla, but maintainance traning is a day for soldiers, they have desgin flaws. The AK.47 maintainance is simple, grab Your shoo ties, grab any kind of lubricateing oil or fat, put it thourgh the barrel, and all done.
Try that with an M16 , and next fire it may explode in Your hands.
Same example, both of them are good, but a weapon is made to fire, not to give a comfort feeeeeling.
I don' know if I managed to show You what I wanted. The design GOAL of russians and other nations are not the same. But russian design goals make more sense. Thats why it allways will have a strong market.
Chart Hit [Level 6]
Wow, VS, doesn't that green Lada look quite like the late model Fiat Punto??? It sure looks better finished (and more aggressive) than the Lada Samaras of yesteryear.
2457, I know my post was very long and probably boring, but if you make the effort of reading it to the end, you'll find ALL your claims have their detailed counter-claim in there.
One thing I can agree with you upon, is the dislike for the current invasion of plastic parts on modern cars. Unfortunately, the US auto industry had to compete with unbridled competition from asian imports (namely Japanese), and had to resort to the same lack of style, plastic bumbers, bubble-car styling, etc...
The increasingly stringent safety regulations also forced some crappy moves, in my opinion: forcing off the chrome bumpers (an enhanced risk when colliding with a pedestrian), creating crumpling zones around the passenger's "cabin" (i.e. weakening the front & rear to absorb shocks while reinforcing the passenger zone), complicated electronic regulating systems to meet emission laws (which can only be maintained with the proper, expensive equipment, etc..
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*** Forum Leader / Moderator ***
YEP :icon_mrgreen:
I fully agree on that. Like I stated, the Russian cars do the job, no doubt about it. Another example: my first digital watch ever, came from Russia (Mid 70's), smuggled by sailors. It was not the most elegant model BITD but...it still works, now, in 2008!
They were very popular in Belgium, especially the Lada Niva and the Wolga.
Acetate [Level 1]
"Well, if it's as well-made as their Lada brand, just don't kick the tires, because the thing will fall apart . The Russians have been consistently known for poor engineering and 3rd-world quality control."
than we can agree, that:
1. lada is well made, just take the time and consider what its made for.
2. "just don't kick the tires..." -> well, has no more chanse than with any other trademark in the world....
3. "poor engineering" -> You must have ment non-comfort engineering, then I can agree :)
4. 3rd-world quality control -> Russians don't have any, they don't need any, and thats becouse every thing they make is not more complex than a hammer. There is absolute nothing that can go wrong with a hammer.
To be honest I replyd to this thread only becouse it sounded like You do not trust russian engeneering. For me it proves day-after-day, mostly winter times when the hightch gizmos can't be started (-25, -30 celsius does the job LOL... despite that I never had even a frozen door-lock, or cold start spray)
Usualy people who do not understand the design principle of russians are the ones makeing statements about "quality" and design of such things.
*** Forum Leader / Moderator ***
. 
. 
And a funny story now developing :
Oleg Deripaska, one of the richest men in the world and the Russian owner of the Gaz Motorcompany is after Hummer. Yep, he wants to buy the company and he probably will succeed this time, after he failed to buy Chrysler, Jaguar and Landrover. So the American Hummer will become Russian soon?
Here's Oleg with his friend....Putin :icon_eek::icon_mrgreen:
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