Music sample rights question

[maarten]

OK - so what ARE the rules? I am utterly confused...

On the highly recommended compilation "Soulfuric Sessions - Jazz-n-Groove' there are many of todays soulful garage/house tracks.

Many of these are based on samples of what we all know and love. Often the original source material is referenced, for instance:

John 'Julius' Knight - "Dancin' in paradise".

Quote from credits: "This recording is a remix of the original sound recording 'Dancin' and prancin' by Candido on Salsoul Records, Inc. (c) 1979." It also says: "...under exclusive license from Bethlehem Music Company Inc, USA."

Nothing to complain about. But on the same compilation, there is a track called "Free" by Grant Nelson. No, this is not the Deniece Williams song, written by Maurice White. It is actually a 'remake' that uses "Stay free" by Ashford & Simpson (my all-time favorite Ashford & Simpson track).

The credits are as follows (my comments in brackets):

Written by G. Nelson (not true). Produced by Grant Nelson (hmmm... remix and re-edit produced by... would have been fair). Published by Bucks Music (nope... publsihed by Nick-O-Val music).

The compilation is by Defected Records, a record company that I like very much, and which is respected and 'above the line' as far as I can tell. So how does this work?
I would love the hear from someone who really understands this kind of stuff.

Apart from that, I think NOT including the credits is ashame for todays young crop of music lovers. How else are they going to discover the originals?

[DeepBeat]

Usually if the credits don't mention the original composers/publishers and/or the original artist/label it means that the label never obtained official sample permission.
Many of today's dance tracks come out as white label promotional 12" singles and, once they pick up club play, they get signed or licensed to larger labels like Defected.
The original white label is usually never cleared for samples etc unless it has the potential of a big hit.
Many dance hits have included samples which were cleared after the track climbed the charts. This is a very risky practice because just when they think they have a huge hit on their hands that's when the sample owner comes in and usually gets 100% of the copyright of the new song (or else they can sue the sample users for every penny they got).
I hope I cleared some of your questions...

[maarten]

Thanks for the clarification. I guess the short is "if you get away with it, you are lucky".

I hope Nick and Val don't let Grant Nelson get away with it!

[Nano]

This remembers me of the whole polemic with The Verve's "Bittersweet Symphony", which sampled a violin riff from a CD of orchestral versions of Rolling Stones oldies.
Andrew Loog Oldham (the Stones first manager) sued and the Verve's singer, Richard Ashcroft, ended sharing his composer credit with Mick & Keith.
Now, I don't mind that when it's obviously a song rip-off (like in rap hits "Gangsta's Paradise" and "She's just a groupie"), but I think The Verve had made a whole other thing with that sample. For me, a sample credit is one thing and a co-composer credit is another. But I'm not a specialist in copyright laws...

[markydefad]

And Nano, the Verve basically had to give away their entire royalties for "Bittersweet Symphony" to the Mick & Keith. The ironic thing is that the violin riff sampled is from a Symphonic CD version of Stones songs and, to the best of my knowledge, Jagger & Richards DID NOT write that riff. It sure isn't in the original song.

I kept hearing that Bittersweet sampled the Stones BUT could not figure out where that violin part came from. I finally read it was on the Symphonic Stones CD, which I did have. The arranger for that shoulda received the royalty, if ya ask me.

[markydefad]

I couldn't even remember which Stones song was sampled, so I had to look it up. It was "The Last Time".

"This will be the last time
this will be the last time
may be the last time
I don't know"

No symphonic strings in that song, if I remember correctly.

[DeepBeat]

The arranger never gets credit for the composition unless it's a new arrangement of a traditional or "public domain" work (such as classical music stuff etc).
However, the label gets a fee for allowing the use of the master recording - in this case the symphonic version...
And yes I do work in copyright...

[markydefad]

I understand your point, of course, Deep Beat, BUT the sample WAS WRITTEN by the arranger in this case. The sample does not appear in the original song. It was composed to give a classical feel to a rock song and then sampled into another rock song. But the composers of the original song (in which the SAMPLE DOES NOT APPEAR) get the royalty.

I realize that's the case. Just doesn't make sense to me. Or, rather, doesn't seem quite fair.

[DeepBeat]

Music publishers are devious little people who sometimes won't allow a cover unless they get credited with 100% of the copyright even if the "cover" has some notable additions like this poor guy's arrangement...

Anyway, Verve did manage to create a wonderful new track out of it...

[markydefad]

Hmmm. Now I'm confused. I assumed that the sample used in "Bittersweet Symphony" was from a CD I have titled "Symphonic Music of the Rolling Stones" with arrangements by Jon Astley (Remember his songs like "Put this Love To The Test"?)

Anyway, "The Last Time" is NOT on this CD.

So I went to the Verve CD and they give credit as follows:

"Bitter Sweet Symphony"
Performed by the Andrew Oldham Orchestra
Produced by Andrew Loog Oldham courtesy of the Decca Record Corporation.
Vocals by Richard Ashcroft
"Bitter Sweet Symphony" written by Mick Jagger & Keith Richards
Published by ABKCO Music, inc (BMI)
Lyrics by Richard Ashcroft
Produced by Youth/The Verve
Additional Production and mixing by Chris Potter.

So now I'm wondering if Andrew Oldham, the guy who sued on behalf of the Stones, actually arranged (thereby composed the riff) used in "Bitter Sweet Symphony". If so, it all makes better sense. What CD was this from? Nano, do you know?

[DeepBeat]

On 2002-07-31 03:24, markydefad wrote:
"Bitter Sweet Symphony"
Performed by the Andrew Oldham Orchestra
Produced by Andrew Loog Oldham courtesy of the Decca Record Corporation.
Vocals by Richard Ashcroft

This refers to the owner of the master recording so Andrew Oldham is the arranger and his label got credit for the sample use.

"Bitter Sweet Symphony" written by Mick Jagger & Keith Richards
Published by ABKCO Music, inc (BMI)
Lyrics by Richard Ashcroft

This refers to the publishing rights. As you can see Jagger/Richards get full credit for the symponic version and (not surprisingly) for Verve's Bittersweet Sympony as well.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: DeepBeat on 2002-07-31 03:37 ]</font>

[DeepBeat]

Hmmmm, I'm not good at this quote thing...I hope you can make out what I'm saying Marky.

[Nano]

Mmmm, that's interesting... I also thought it was on that symphonic CD (I remember myself receiving tons of that symphonic stuff by the mid-90's, when I was working in a music mag). Anyway, the Stones have not one but TWO of those boring tributes, and "The last time" (originally released on the USA version of the "Out of our heads" LP) is not in either of them!
However, AllMusic.com points the existence of an Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra in the mid-60's (this is news to me). This is the quote from Oldham's entry:
"Producing their 1964 debut (Nano note: for the USA) The Rolling Stones (England's Newest Hitmakers), Oldham helmed no fewer than four other LPs for the group before the end of 1965 alone; additionally, he formed the Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra to release symphonic albums including 'Plays Lionel Bart's Maggie May' and 'East Meets West: Famous Hits of the Beach Boys and the Four Seasons'".
However, there's no entries for the Orchestra nor this albums in the database. My obvious guess is that there was a Stones "orchestral" album by ALG and that it was released in his own Inmediate label, closed by the end of the 60s.
About ALG's involvement in suing The Verve, I understand it has to do with Oldham's own rights on the Stones's early catalog. When he and the band parted ways, Oldham managed to get the rights to keep releasing the old songs any way he wanted (and he did, at least for the 60s and 70s, on endless cheap compilations). Then, Mick & Keith signed with Allen Klein and even recommended him to John Lennon. This is what we call going from bad to worse...
I remember reading that ALG did all the suing in Ashcroft's case, and that the Glimmer Twins just listened to the Verve's song in a meeting of lawyers at EMI. They looked at each other and just said: "yeah, they're very similar". That sealed the fate of the song rights. Gonna check out at home if there's something more.