Publishing rights

[Fiorenzo]

I'm having a look at this site with a friend of mine who used to be a disco producer. The question here after hearing the sound files is: do you pay any royalties at all? Some other sites like this had to be closed down...

[euroflash]

Fiorenzo,

The sound samples provided here are for promotional/educational purpose only and comply in good faith with Fair Use Doctrine {USC Title 17, Sec 107}. All rights of the artists/producers reserved.

If you, or your friend are further interested whether royalties from sound samples on this or other similar site MUST BE paid, please visit

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

Best regards,

[Fiorenzo]

Good to see that the samples have disappeared. In my opinion this is a COMMERCIAL SITE! The fact that the webmaster is selling records and CD's clearly shows that this is neither an educational nor non-profit site...

[Bernie]

Good to see that the samples have disappeared. In my opinion this is a COMMERCIAL SITE! The fact that the webmaster is selling records and CD's clearly shows that this is neither an educational nor non-profit site...

Fiorenzo,

Please allow me to set the record straight as the post above from Euroflash does NOT represent this site nor does he. The music that had appeared on this site for several years was LEGALLY licensed with royalties PAID for quarter after quarter as required by ASCAP and BMI.

As the most popular web site of its kind, DiscoMusic.com has worked hand in hand with artists, labels and others in the music industry to actively promote the music and artists talents.

[paul]

Maybe this is just my naivete but I just can't understand how music industry guys get their panties in a bunch because of music samples. It was because of music samples that jarred my memory I bought some of the music I did.
Is it greed that's causing this narrow way of thinking!
If the the webmaster did provide samples and as a result people bought music from one of the linked retailers, doesn't the artist, manufacturer, etc. benefit? :o

[Bernie]

Maybe this is just my naivete but I just can't understand how music industry guys get their panties in a bunch because of music samples. It was because of music samples that jarred my memory I bought some of the music I did.
Is it greed that's causing this narrow way of thinking!
If the the webmaster did provide samples and as a result people bought music from one of the linked retailers, doesn't the artist, manufacturer, etc. benefit? :o

Paul,

EXACTLY! Fiorenzo and his "producer" friend should be thanking all their fans here for buying their music and DiscoMusic.com for LEGALLY providing samples and lining their pockets with the royalty payments this site has paid to them over the years. After hearing his comments it just validates my reasons for cancelling my licensing contracts and dropping the samples.

People came to DiscoMusic.com and listened to a low res mono RealAudio 30 second sample realized it was a long lost favorite song they couldn't ID before and bought the CD from the link. Simple, but they screwed it up and now these people simply go to the p2p sites to hear it and simply end up downloading the whole song for free.

In what other industry would you kill the free advertising others were doing for you? It would be like Heinz ketchup forcing restaurants to remove bottles of their ketchup from the tables unless they get 5¢ for each serving, a percentage of ALL sales and then they want to know how many ounces and what time of day and on what dish it was used for. And they wonder why they are losing money?

It's a good thing most artists and producers I've spoken to don't have this attitude. I'd really like to know who this so called "disco producer" is that Fiorenzo speaks of.

[judydoggie]

I, too would like to know who Fiorenzo's "record producer" friend is. As a producer of jazz records, I'm completely willing to have whomever, wherever, offer up exciting "clips" of music in the requisite low-res format, for promo purposes. Unless you've no confidence in your wares, there's nothing better than a free sample to get folks to buy your product!

The GOOD news is that maybe Bernie should re-visit ASCAP and BMI's recently revised regulations, which aren't nearly as draconian as they once were. Yet, I'll admit, that if you're not a radio station, the two licensing bodies are remarkably paranoid about "that new-fangled Internet thingie."

The record companies play a part in this, also. I've been receiving complimentary product from a wide variety of record labels for years, for promotional purposes. The one label that's been reluctant to submit promo product to me has been Sony. I was told by a member of another music-industry Forum that no less than a half-dozen of one of Sony's brand-new releases were available at a used record store in New York City. These copies were all obviously promotional product, and identified as such. It amazes me that bona-fide reviewers can't get product and there are folks out there who're voting members of the Grammy Academy who'll prostitute themselves for $3-4.

Paul - a.k.a. JudyDoggie
paul@asianfusion.net

[QUINNY]

I, too would like to know who Fiorenzo's "record producer" friend is. As a producer of jazz records, I'm completely willing to have whomever, wherever, offer up exciting "clips" of music in the requisite low-res format, for promo purposes. Unless you've no confidence in your wares, there's nothing better than a free sample to get folks to buy your product!

The GOOD news is that maybe Bernie should re-visit ASCAP and BMI's recently revised regulations, which aren't nearly as draconian as they once were. Yet, I'll admit, that if you're not a radio station, the two licensing bodies are remarkably paranoid about "that new-fangled Internet thingie."

The record companies play a part in this, also. I've been receiving complimentary product from a wide variety of record labels for years, for promotional purposes. The one label that's been reluctant to submit promo product to me has been Sony. I was told by a member of another music-industry Forum that no less than a half-dozen of one of Sony's brand-new releases were available at a used record store in New York City. These copies were all obviously promotional product, and identified as such. It amazes me that bona-fide reviewers can't get product and there are folks out there who're voting members of the Grammy Academy who'll prostitute themselves for $3-4.

Paul - a.k.a. JudyDoggie
paul@asianfusion.net

Mmmmm. I wonder which other industry is expected to let potential customers have a taste of its wares to such a degree? It's as if we all consider ourselves to have some kind of inalienable right to all music, on demand. Patently, this is not and could never be the case.
I also wonder which other industry can have its wares so perfectly copied (illegally) by the end user? Whilst we're on the subject, which other industry has so many people trying to rip it off?

Bernie, JudyD and others: I do feel that you guys really need to think this whole situation through a little deeper. The reasons why we all come to a different take on this subject are basically threefold depending on (a) whether or not one has a vested interest in the longevity of the music biz (b) plain old fashioned morals and (c) whether or not one realises that a CD or record is only a copy of the original, sold to us with very limited rights of ownership. That is, intelllectual rights to the product are not included, just the physical ownership of the piece of plastic, which in itself has only the value of the raw materials used.

On the second point alone, do any of you guys condone any other form of stealing? I'd like to know. If not, what makes the music biz such an obvious target for you guys to have a pop at?

BTW: As of October I have retired from the music biz, so I no longer have any real reason to defend it, other than the position of doing unto others what one would have them to do unto oneself. I don't steal from anyone and I wouldn't want anyone to steal from me. It's that simple.

Bernie: Shame on you!
Hope you don't mind me starting up a rival site and copying material from the discussion forums here wholesale, to use on it? After all, you've only contributed the where with all to make this site function and contribute very little to the discussions. All us guys who post here own the words we type, don't we? I guess you're O.K with that, are you? Oh, I've just looked and it says copyright Bernard F Lopez 1996 -2004. All rights reserved etc etc.

I rest my case.

[Fiorenzo]

Come on folks, give me break. My point was:
Are paying publishing rights? Which you apparently did.
If you sample from an old record, that's fine by me: but do not foget that you're using somebody else's work, which means paying royalties...

[Fiorenzo]

I'd really like to know who this so called "disco producer" is that Fiorenzo speaks of.

Have a guess!

[Bernie]

Mmmmm. I wonder which other industry is expected to let potential customers have a taste of its wares to such a degree? It's as if we all consider ourselves to have some kind of inalienable right to all music, on demand. Patently, this is not and could never be the case.

"To such a degree?" A legally paid for and licensed 30 second sample is too much? Please don't confuse this discussion with MP3 theft and p2p networks as that is not what we are talking about here. We all agree that theft of music is wrong.

Have you ever worked in retail? One of the first things most any store does is put out display merchandise for customers to see, feel, touch and hear. Whether it's a clothing store, audio/video shop or a department store this has always been the case. Even Baskin Robins lets people sample their ice cream. When I helped manage a record store we always opened some of the new releases to play during the day for the customers to hear and potentially buy. This has been the protocol for ages and the record labels actively encouraged it.

You are right, no one has an "inalienable right to all music." it's not even necessary in the grand scheme of life, but it does make good business sense to promote your wares and have others do so as well within reasonable limits. Those reasonalbe limits are to allow music buyers to hear a low-fi 30 second sample. Apple iTunes relaizes that and offers it for all their songs. Guess what? They're selling music and people are happy again. Again, we are NOT talking about making whole songs available as free high quality MP3.

I also wonder which other industry can have its wares so perfectly copied (illegally) by the end user? Whilst we're on the subject, which other industry has so many people trying to rip it off?

This has nothing to do with what we are talking about. In fact it's the fact that so many people can't hear small samples that they end going to the p2p networks and end up stealing the music, which of course is wrong morally and legally.

Bernie, JudyD and others: I do feel that you guys really need to think this whole situation through a little deeper. The reasons why we all come to a different take on this subject are basically threefold depending on (a) whether or not one has a vested interest in the longevity of the music biz (b) plain old fashioned morals and (c) whether or not one realises that a CD or record is only a copy of the original, sold to us with very limited rights of ownership. That is, intelllectual rights to the product are not included, just the physical ownership of the piece of plastic, which in itself has only the value of the raw materials used.

None of the above are at issue here as no one is stealing music here or enticing others to do so. No one is looking for a free ride. I've paid thousands of dollars to the various music bodies over the years to prove it and stay legal. This site legally licensed and paid for the rights to all the samples that were featured here-all several hundred of them. They were only removed because the licensor(s) wanted to raise the fees to a level that didn't make any economic sense and require even more bookkeeping/paperwork than I was already providing--recordkeeping that even large corporate over the air radio broadcasters don't have to do. I'm paying and abiding by the contracts and I'm treated like a criminal! How is that fair?

On the second point alone, do any of you guys condone any other form of stealing? I'd like to know. If not, what makes the music biz such an obvious target for you guys to have a pop at?

Quinny, you have been here long enough to know that I do not condone stealing of music. I've been very vocal about not allowing anyone to offer to make, trade or give links to illegal music. You've seen me delete or edit posts that do.

BTW: As of October I have retired from the music biz, so I no longer have any real reason to defend it, other than the position of doing unto others what one would have them to do unto oneself. I don't steal from anyone and I wouldn't want anyone to steal from me. It's that simple.

See above... This discussion is not about theft!

Bernie: Shame on you!
Hope you don't mind me starting up a rival site and copying material from the discussion forums here wholesale, to use on it? After all, you've only contributed the where with all to make this site function and contribute very little to the discussions. All us guys who post here own the words we type, don't we? I guess you're O.K with that, are you? Oh, I've just looked and it says copyright Bernard F Lopez 1996 -2004. All rights reserved etc etc.

I rest my case.

No shame on you. Either you don't understand the discussion taking place or you are casting aspersions, which I don't appreciate.

[paul]

Mmmmm. I wonder which other industry is expected to let potential customers have a taste of its wares to such a degree? It's as if we all consider ourselves to have some kind of inalienable right to all music, on demand. Patently, this is not and could never be the case.
I also wonder which other industry can have its wares so perfectly copied (illegally) by the end user? Whilst we're on the subject, which other industry has so many people trying to rip it off?

Quinny, Fiorenzo, you guys are so way off base it seems you must live in a parallel universe. There are many industries that give away their products in order to get the word out. It seems the music industry is the only that bitches about it.
Examples, just several weeks back we were discussing Pontiac giving Oprah the opportunity to give away their cars. My Sunday paper usually has free sample from companies that are launching new products. The talk shows I listen to usually have people that have written books and they are constantly giving out free books. I could go on but the point is to get the product familiar to the larger market. You may think you just created some beautiful piece of work but if no one knows about it, you'll be the only one who knows or cares about it. Since most of these creators want money from this, guess what. They'll do what every other industry does. Provide samples in some way shape or form. Christ, no wonder the industry is going down if the dim bulbs just wanna whine about stuff like this.
As for theft, it's a fact of life. Every business has to deal with that. You can minimize it but as long as there are human beings with shortcomings, that sort of thing is gonna happen.

[QUINNY]

Bernie: I'm playing devil's advocate, mainly 'cos I am very concerned with the rapid decline in ethics that the proliferation of computers has brought upon society. The internet in particular, is a most anarchic place. I know full well that you endeavour to do everything above board, but it does seem as though you're unable to get off of the fence on this issue. It's not my intention to be harsh, 'cos I appreciate what you're doing here, but I notice you had no answer to my request to rip you off. So I assume that hit home to some extent.

Fact is that the rise in internet use is directly proprtional to the decline of CD sales. Surely that's no accident. To deny that even 30 second samples in lo fi (exactly how lo fi are we talking here?) have had an effect is pure denial. Could it be that the very presence of these 30 second clips has given a whole generation a different mindset, viz "I can hear a free 30 second sample via the net, why shouldn't I be able to get that whole song free via the net?" In a perfect world that wouldn't happen, but in the world we live in there's a truck load of guys only too happy to oblige. They have the same mentality as hackers, virus makers etc. You either believe in intellectual rights or you don't. You can't really go part time on this.

So far as I know you can't make your own Baskin Robbins ice cream, hoover, car, shirt, dress, shoes etc etc etc by just buying one and putting it into a consumer machine of some description to make a copy. Neither can you download them or even a small sample for free on demand via the net. That's why the music biz is so different to almost any other biz that you care to name.

[NickNack]

Good to see that the samples have disappeared. In my opinion this is a COMMERCIAL SITE! The fact that the webmaster is selling records and CD's clearly shows that this is neither an educational nor non-profit site...

You really need to get your facts straight before making statements such as this. Why not check out the 'PLEASE NOTE' section of the fifth FAQ listed (link below). It's always been there, since the incorporation of the site.

http://www.discomusic.com/contact.php

[Videoskooter]

You know-I had this discussion with a couple of friends yesterday.
One of them asked why I'm still buying my CD's and DVD's since everybody else is ripping them and downloading them from the net for free (and illegal).

First I told him that my parents raised me that way. If somebody's working for me, he's getting paid. If an artist is writing and recording, he is working for my entertainment. That's a simple fact, so he must be paid for that effort. Period.

I know very well that you can download almost every song or movie from the net without paying for it. So what! If everybody starts doing that, no record- or moviecompany will survive. Is that what we're aiming at?

A lot of people and especially the youngsters wanna have everything and they want it for free. That's the new mentality and that attitude sucks! Only a few weeks ago I had to call the police coz a group of young guys was riding the bumpercars with false tokens. They simply bought a real one and they cut a whole bunch from a plastic panel. They were only stupid enough to use the wrong colour so we discovered why they were riding for an hour and never came to the cashbox. They were having fun and I wasn't paid.

That's the same thing as stealing music. Every record I own was bought and paid and, oh yes, I spend a lot of money on my collection and now suddenly in the eyes of those guys I'm a jerk and a fool because I don't steal.

As I have told before, a guy in Belgium was recently fined 100.000 euros for copying and selling games, dvd's and cd's and that guy said he was a victim of the greedy companies.

No he isn't! He's a stupid thief. IMO, people like that must be punished very hard.

I rest my case!

[Fiorenzo]

You really need to get your facts straight before making statements such as this. Why not check out the 'PLEASE NOTE' section of the fifth FAQ listed (link below). It's always been there, since the incorporation of the site.

http://www.discomusic.com/contact.php

Please go to: http://www.discomusic.com/cds-index
Isn't he reselling product by Amazon and Gemm and getting a percentage for it?