Didn't a lot of artists have instrumental versions of songs?

[Spellbound]

"Didn't a lot of artists have instrumental versions of their songs in case they sang on some TV show and needed a backing track?"

Disco Funk

This topic has always interested me. I remember asking about the "SINNER MAN" instrumental on this forum several months ago. Someone replied it does exist, but only available on some television program from 1978.

I have always been interested in watching old made for television movies and vintage programming recorded on VHS/BETA with the original commercials. When I was a child (mid 80's) almost every television program from the 1970's was rerun at some point including some made for television movies. I can recall watching some movies where instrumental versions of DISCO songs were being played without any of the vocals. There were so many songs. Most of them I have no clue as to who the original artist or producer was.

Years later while going through crates of 12" records I rediscovered the originals (with the vocals) to some of the instrumentals I saw on television as a child. Three of which I remember disctinctly are IF MY FRIENDS COULD SEE ME NOW, MUSIC IS ALL THAT WE NEED & THAT OLD BLACK MAGIC. There were many others I heard as a child but unfortunately I have not come across the originals yet so I have no way of knowing what songs they were. Most of them I might never find but I do have some of the melodies in my mind just in case I do. Sometimes just listening to a portion of a record will awaken a memory of an instrumental that was long forgotten.

So here are my questions.

In cases where orchestras and bands were not present were the singers (singing live not recorded vocals) on television programs (DISCO MAGIC etc....) backed by a record or tape?

Who owns the rights to the unreleased instrumentals?

Where can they be found?

Were these special records with the instumentals given only to the television studios?

or

Were the instrumentals rerecorded by television network bands/orchestras with special permission from the record labels?

Every once in a while I come across old 12" records with INST written in marker on the label with nothing else on it.
How common were these records?

Are they considered bootelegs or white labels?

Is this the only way to find unreleased sought after instrumentals on vinyl?

How did the original owner/DJ obtain them?

I apologize for the number of questions.

Thanks.

[eddie]

You posed some great questions.
First of all, a songwriter holds copyright to the music that is played. The songwriter has little need to enter a contract with a record label and give up his right to the copyright. So you have to ask his permission and not the labels to rerecord it under most curcumstances.
Singers, groups, and bands are investments by labels. Labels pay for studio time, promotion, advances, ect. but typically own the original sound recording. Individual contracts may vary but this is typical.
Some instrumental backing tracks were issued on the flipsides of 12" singles and 45's. I even have a rare Barry White instrumental on a Polydor CD compilation.
In several instances, the company making the movie also owns the sound recording. For instance Sony had a motion picture division and a music division.

[Disco Funk]

I wouldn't be surprised if DJs like Tom Moulton got their hands on instrumental versions on tape or acetate. Perhaps they made them as test pressings to hear what the mix sounded like on vinyl? But I certainly would love to hear about the backing track audio that artists probably used on TV shows if they sang live. If they were tape based, or vinyl records, too. Someone must have a collection of these somewhere.

Disco Funk

[Spellbound]

Some instrumental backing tracks were issued on the flipsides of 12" singles and 45's. I even have a rare Barry White instrumental on a Polydor CD compilation.

Any idea what the percentage is? Most of my DISCO era 12's (I have a few hundred) do not have the instrumental versions. Whenever I am going through 12" or 7" records I always cross my fingers as I flip from side A to side B. I have learned not to be too hopeful though. Usually my excitement turns into disappointment.

I wouldn't be surprised if DJs like Tom Moulton got their hands on instrumental versions on tape or acetate. Perhaps they made them as test pressings to hear what the mix sounded like on vinyl?

What is the average life span of an acetate? How many listens? Next time I come across some of those blank label "INST" records I will definitely check them out. Usually when I see them in the stores they are not there the next time I go back.

[ol'skinflint]

You posed some great questions.
First of all, a songwriter holds copyright to the music that is played. The songwriter has little need to enter a contract with a record label and give up his right to the copyright. So you have to ask his permission and not the labels to rerecord it under most curcumstances.
Singers, groups, and bands are investments by labels. Labels pay for studio time, promotion, advances, ect. but typically own the original sound recording. Individual contracts may vary but this is typical.
Some instrumental backing tracks were issued on the flipsides of 12" singles and 45's. I even have a rare Barry White instrumental on a Polydor CD compilation.
In several instances, the company making the movie also owns the sound recording. For instance Sony had a motion picture division and a music division.

are you sure the songwriter holds the copyright? I understand Michael Jackson bought and owns the publishing rights to many Lennon/McCartney compositions (have you ever noticed you've NEVER heard Lennon/McCartney songs LEGALLY sampled in other songs)? And what happens when the songwriter is deceased? And while we're on this subject, what does it mean when the word "traditional" is listed where a songwriter's named is usually listed?

[Disco Funk]

are you sure the songwriter holds the copyright? I understand Michael Jackson bought and owns the publishing rights to many Lennon/McCartney compositions (have you ever noticed you've NEVER heard Lennon/McCartney songs LEGALLY sampled in other songs)? And what happens when the songwriter is deceased? And while we're on this subject, what does it mean when the word "traditional" is listed where a songwriter's named is usually listed?

I think Copyright is a transferrable commodity. It's not something that sticks with the person who wrote it or their relatives. People can buy and sell copyrighted material like they were shares in a company. I've heard that someone like Chuck Berry doesn't make any money off of his songs that he wrote because he got cheated out of the copyright ownership.

If the songwriter dies, and still owned the copyright, I think it depends on what they wrote in the Will. Perhaps the copyright is owned by their estate, or its owned by their relatives. For example, I believe Yoko Ono has copyright control over John Lennon's solo material.

Traditional means its a song that no one owns the copyright to, like Twinkle Twinkle Little Star. However, a song like Happy Birthday, which might be thought of as traditional, is really copyrighted.

I think copyright ownership has an expiry date. I don't know how long it is. It probably is renewable, but I'm not sure at what point it completely runs out. I know that with movies, the companies who owned the copyright to the films have to renew it after a certain number of decades.

Disco Funk

[Mixmachine]

Well, I’m no expert , but this is what I’ve been able to learn through the years.

Who owns the rights to the unreleased instrumentals?

Unless the rights were transferred or sold usually the original writers own the copyrights to both the lyrics and music, anyone that wants to reproduced this particular composition or any portion needs to secure the rights beforehand, usually through BMI or ASCAP. (Any bar playing music , especially Dance/Disco Night Clubs pay a fee based on a complicated formula, they have to pay both associations or they could be shut down).

I’d be willing to bet that the most likely reason why we can’t find many instrumentals on the flip side of 7” is probably royalties. If the Producer/Label includes the instrumental on their release along side the vocal version the writers or copyright owners will have to be compensated twice (for each side) or reach some kind of financial accommodation with the label, but most likely the cost of production will be higher for the label for basically the same song, that’s why they usually include instead a different song, betting that most consumers will likely perceive the product as a better value.

Take today’s DVD market for instance, the DVD producers (independent or not) have to pay for every different sound ‘codec’ they include on the DVD release, so when you see both a DD (Dolby Digital) and a DTS soundtrack on the DVD label, the studio had to negotiate for every song included in the movie soundtrack with the music copyright owners as they are compensated for both sound tracks , if the DVD includes also the redbook soundtrack only, the copyright owners are compensated for that too, that’s why the Studios stopped releasing soundtrack as a separate Audio on DVDs, this used to be more common when DVDs were first introduced in ’97, now if you want the soundtrack you need to pick up the CD.

Where can they be found?

Most if not all club shows I witnessed and participated the Artist or Producer would bring a Reel To Reel Tape of the song(s) without the main vocals, sometimes they’d also removed the ‘backup vocals’ if the artist traveled with a vocal back up group (rare), this tapes were usually produced ahead of time from the masters at the studio during the mixdown process with live performances in mind, which was usually (still is) the most profitable aspect of the Business for most Artists.

Were these special records with the instumentals given only to the television studios?

Probably the producers requested them, or maybe the Studio own the rights, but rest assure that the Broadcasters pays for every piece of music they use, and if the show airs many times they pay for every showing.

Studios can not release DVDs or (VHS before) without securing the music rights first, many DVDs have been released with music omitted or replaced because of music rights legal issues (“Love at first bite”), and many old syndicated shows playing on cable channels today have replaced some of the original music to avoid royalties..

Were the instrumentals rerecorded by television network bands/orchestras with special permission from the record labels?

With Permission from who ever owns the music rights.

Every once in a while I come across old 12" records with INST written in marker on the label with nothing else on it.
How common were these records?

How did the original owner/DJ obtain them?

Probably acetates left behind with the DJ by the song/Show Producers as souvenirs or for promotional reasons,. acetates don’t last long as they wear out after each play, some are vinyl ‘test pressings’ with the vocal track removed for what ever reason, this are very rare as usually only a hand full were pressed and distributed to Radio/Club Djs, but also bear in mind that this may contain defects that were later fixed before the official release.

PS: I just noticed the original post is from 2005

[QUINNY]

So far as copyright goes there are several factors involved:

SFAIK: The writer or composer of music should never loose their rights to receiving royalties unless they expressly sign those rights away. So far as Michael Jackson owning the Beatles back catalogue....this concerns that portion which is payable to the music publisher NOT to the writers and may also involve the payments for radio/TV/public performance of the actual recordings. However, in the case of the mechanical copyright (i.e the royalty received from each record or CD for writing the song), normally the publisher will collect any royalties due and then send the appropriate cut to the writers. Copyright exists until 70 years (it may have increased recently) after the writer's/composer's death. Copyright to the actual recordings lasts for 50 years after its first release.

The instrumentals to tracks for use as backing tracks would have been very commonplace BITD, because as far as I remember, the Musician's Union were very hot at the time and insisted that TV performances had to have 'live' vocals. In many instances, the Union would insist on everything being live or real musicians miming, in order for the musicians of the day to receive more than just a one-off session fee at the time of making a recording. Perhaps now you'll understand why I've always maintained that Disco was a last ditch effort by the music industry's 'old school/ old timers' to wrestle back control of the music business. The very reason a lot of Disco music has orchestral backing, is simply down to the American Musician's Union insisting that musicians had to be employed and the threat of legal action if records were released NOT using the appropriate number of union members. You've got to realise that there were sooo many musicians out there who were suddenly more or less out of work once the Brit invasion started in 1963 and popular music suddenly consisted of just 4 or 5 instruments: mainly guitars and drums) and the Musician's Union through its stranglehold of the industry tried every which way to get back work for 'legitimate' musicians.

Hope this helps clarify a few things.

[Disco Funk]

Unless the rights were transferred or sold usually the original writers own the copyrights to both the lyrics and music, anyone that wants to reproduced this particular composition or any portion needs to secure the rights beforehand, usually through BMI or ASCAP. (Any bar playing music , especially Dance/Disco Night Clubs pay a fee based on a complicated formula, they have to pay both associations or they could be shut down).

I recall at least one case where the instrumental version of a song was credited differently from the vocal. The Trammps 'Zing' had the original credit, but the instrumental, which was renamed 'Penguin...' was credited to Baker Harris and Young.

Disco Funk

[tony98]

I have an interesting instrumental 7" it's the backing tracks of the Fantastic Johnny C on side a. "Waiting For The Rain" b."Don't Depend On Me" credited to The Philly Sound - Phil La Of Soul label #PH369 from 74'.

[remicks]

The very reason a lot of Disco music has orchestral backing, is simply down to the American Musician's Union insisting that musicians had to be employed and the threat of legal action if records were released NOT using the appropriate number of union members.

Quinny .... this part just doesn't sound correct :icon_rolleyes: ....many many American disco records ... and especially in the catagory of the ones you prefer .... naming ZONE for ex. .... were not full orchestra .... ? Are you saying each label was required to put out a certain percentage of their output as orchestral music .....???
What was the "appropriate number of union members " exactly ?
You assert that disco music was produced just to satisfy a required
usage of harp players ......???
The unions put the lean on Barry White/Gene Page to artificially come up with LOVE'S THEME ???


*****

[QUINNY]

Quinny .... this part just doesn't sound correct :icon_rolleyes: ....many many American disco records ... and especially in the catagory of the ones you prefer .... naming ZONE for ex. .... were not full orchestra .... ? Are you saying each label was required to put out a certain percentage of their output as orchestral music .....???
What was the "appropriate number of union members " exactly ?
You assert that disco music was produced just to satisfy a required
usage of harp players ......???
The unions put the lean on Barry White/Gene Page to artificially come up with LOVE'S THEME ???


*****

I'm not American so I wouldn't know the exact figures, but yes, there was a loose agreement that session musicians had to be employed, especially orchestral types. Don't forget, until the R&R explosion (and in particular the 60's Brit invasion), most records on major labels had orchestras/traditional instrumentation. It was the way things were done and sooooo it was considered the norm. You also had some very strong unions in the print trade that inhibited an awful lot of European LPs and singles from being sold Stateside (because the jackets weren't made in the USA). Restrictive practices were rife in the '70s: a time at which the unions' power was at its zenith.

[Simon White]

:icon_confused:

So far as copyright goes there are several factors involved:

SFAIK: The writer or composer of music should never loose their rights to receiving royalties unless they expressly sign those rights away. So far as Michael Jackson owning the Beatles back catalogue....this concerns that portion which is payable to the music publisher NOT to the writers and may also involve the payments for radio/TV/public performance of the actual recordings. However, in the case of the mechanical copyright (i.e the royalty received from each record or CD for writing the song), normally the publisher will collect any royalties due and then send the appropriate cut to the writers. Copyright exists until 70 years (it may have increased recently) after the writer's/composer's death. Copyright to the actual recordings lasts for 50 years after its first release.

The instrumentals to tracks for use as backing tracks would have been very commonplace BITD, because as far as I remember, the Musician's Union were very hot at the time and insisted that TV performances had to have 'live' vocals. In many instances, the Union would insist on everything being live or real musicians miming, in order for the musicians of the day to receive more than just a one-off session fee at the time of making a recording. Perhaps now you'll understand why I've always maintained that Disco was a last ditch effort by the music industry's 'old school/ old timers' to wrestle back control of the music business. The very reason a lot of Disco music has orchestral backing, is simply down to the American Musician's Union insisting that musicians had to be employed and the threat of legal action if records were released NOT using the appropriate number of union members. You've got to realise that there were sooo many musicians out there who were suddenly more or less out of work once the Brit invasion started in 1963 and popular music suddenly consisted of just 4 or 5 instruments: mainly guitars and drums) and the Musician's Union through its stranglehold of the industry tried every which way to get back work for 'legitimate' musicians.

Hope this helps clarify a few things.

I'm not sure some of this is right outside the UK Quinny. Copyright is different in different countries in Europe surely?

[Mixmachine]

I recall at least one case where the instrumental version of a song was credited differently from the vocal. The Trammps 'Zing' had the original credit, but the instrumental, which was renamed 'Penguin...' was credited to Baker Harris and Young.

Disco Funk

Yes, this is actually a perfect example, the original 1975 "Zing" album included both versions released at the same time, the instrumental "Penguin at the big apple" was written and credited tothe Harris/Baker/Young team but the vocal version is described on the LP as a Medley, the Trammps used/borrowed lyrics from an old song performed by Judy Garland I believe, in this original LP they are properly crediting both the lyrics creator by the name of Hanley as well the H.B.Y. team..

But yet I also have a UK Pye 12" (much better sound quality)with the "Medley" version, only here they only credit Hanley. :icon_rolleyes:

[Mixmachine]

I have an interesting instrumental 7" it's the backing tracks of the Fantastic Johnny C on side a. "Waiting For The Rain" b."Don't Depend On Me" credited to The Philly Sound - Phil La Of Soul label #PH369 from 74'.

I also own this 7' as well as the vocal versions on Phil LA Soul # 361, the writters are properly credited in both versions, Baker/Felder/Harris, only the performer 's name changes since Johnny C's vocals were removed and he's not entittled to any royalties from the instrumental release..

The Philly Sound (PH 369)

[remicks]

I'm not American so I wouldn't know the exact figures, but yes, there was a loose agreement that session musicians had to be employed, especially orchestral types. Don't forget, until the R&R explosion (and in particular the 60's Brit invasion), most records on major labels had orchestras/traditional instrumentation. It was the way things were done and sooooo it was considered the norm. Restrictive practices were rife in the '70s: a time at which the unions' power was at its zenith.

Quinny , my friend .... with all do respect ....I can't buy this one.
I honestly don't think any given instrument was expressly chosen to be included on any 70's song .... be it disco .... country.... rock 'n roll .... with the intended purpose of placating the musician's union.....

Maybe some further educatin' will change my mind .... but my gut reaction ? = :icon_razz:

*****

[QUINNY]

Quinny , my friend .... with all do respect ....I can't buy this one.
I honestly don't think any given instrument was expressly chosen to be included on any 70's song .... be it disco .... country.... rock 'n roll .... with the intended purpose of placating the musician's union.....

Maybe some further educatin' will change my mind .... but my gut reaction ? = :icon_razz:

*****

What can I say? You can lead a donkey to water, but........

Unions were highly organised in the 1970s and union members had to be used. Why do you think that sooooo many Disco LPs have credits for (can't think of the term right now) the guys who contracted the musicians? It was a difficult job that had to take account of union rates, union members and union rules.

O.K. I agree that to a large extent, strings and things were still de facto in lotsa music at the time, BUT without a strong musician's union the 1980s (when sparse more electronic sounds took over) would have happened a lot sooner. Throughout the late '60s -late '70s the musician's union was fighting a rear-guard action against what was viewd as the death of live music and musicianship.....the onward march of the guitar and keyboard wielding 'pop' brigade.

[remicks]

****

I know that in the fifties ...vocalists used to record using what they called the " four in three " ....
the goal being to record four songs before the session went into overtime ....

The idea that the musicians' union was making sure that their clan was getting used on these records .... as opposed to just anyone off the street.... or somebody's brother blowing the sax ....makes sense .... so in that sense ...I agree that they "had" to use these union members for their sessions.

But I still doubt anyone within the recording companies ever dictated "hey be sure to put some strings on that cut by Elton John .... gotta please the union you know " :icon_confused:

......... This idea of needing union players to perform each of those instruments disco music embraced .....those horn sections ....percussionists ....strings ..... has me thinking .... with all the related bother of using them within union guidelines .....and in an era where the bulk of music was more simple and mainly guitar driven .... using all those additional musicians .... it's just one more issue that makes the emergence of disco all the more miraculous .... don't you think ....


*****

[markydefad]

I do know that the musicians union did require a certain number of their members to be hired by every Broadway musical even if they didn't play their instruments in the show--there was a quota system at work there.

[ol'skinflint]

this is an interesting subject to me because long ago I used to make an effort to locate instrumental versions of songs that I liked a lot. I would often find them on the "b" side to the main version or on 12" remixes. My favorites are the instumental versions of Barry White's "I'm Qualified to Satisfy You", Culture Club's "Romance Beyond the Alphabet" (which is only an instrumental version of their hit "Time(Clock of the Heart)", the instrumental versions of Freddie Jackson's "Tasty Love" and Mint Condition's "Where Do You Want Me To Put It?" and the percolating instrumental version of Donna Summer's "This Time I Know It's For Real". I used to mix together the vocal and instrumental versions when I'd make cassette recordings back in the day....

[ashley]

.. I always assumed the instrumental version was a method to ensure all royalties went to the same songwriter ( .. nobody wants a big hit record only to see half the royalties going to the writer of the b-side .. ) .. but b-side instrumentals only appeared on uptempo dance/disco records .. you didn't get slow ballad b-side instrumentals, or rock b-side instrumentals .. Wasn't the instrumental b-side a device invented for djs? .. again, I always assumed the b-side instrumental was designed so the dj could purchase 2 copies of a popular record & mix the vocal and the instrumental versions together to create a longer mix for the dancefloor .. this only happened in the 70s, immediately prior to the birth of the 12" single (Motown weren't doing it in the sixties) .. A later device for djs was the expanded 12" single .. which dispensed with the need of an instrumental mix .. so then we got even more dj-friendly devices like the eye-queue break and the acappella mix

[KINGDISCO]

next one...

[KINGDISCO]

Perhaps now you'll understand why I've always maintained that Disco was a last ditch effort by the music industry's 'old school/ old timers' to wrestle back control of the music business. The very reason a lot of Disco music has orchestral backing, is simply down to the American Musician's Union insisting that musicians had to be employed and the threat of legal action if records were released NOT using the appropriate number of union members. You've got to realise that there were sooo many musicians out there who were suddenly more or less out of work once the Brit invasion started in 1963 and popular music suddenly consisted of just 4 or 5 instruments: mainly guitars and drums) and the Musician's Union through its stranglehold of the industry tried every which way to get back work for 'legitimate' musicians.

Hope this helps clarify a few things.

PURE BALONEY-QUINNY!

That is the most absurd excuse for jealousy against music created in the United States of the 70's especially DISCO I ever heard. Unions forcing instrumental additions to disco songs just so musicians can be employed – Puuuhlease!!!

Now the truth: Fact, not all 70’s music contained orchestral arrangements. Fact, most songwriters in POP, and the DISCO genre wanted FULL RANGE detail to capture the complete spectrum of sound. No bandwidth was left empty. This is why the fulfilling superior quality of this type of 70’s music brings so much pleasure, good feelings and happy emotions to the listener.
Bands, songwriters and artists DEMANDED the talent of musicians to perform for them, not the other way around. My brother worked for the Bee Gees and I can assure you that the work input to complete many of their songs is incomprehensible to people of today. You have no idea what man-hours was involved in writing, recording, blending, equalizing, proofing, etc. to create a finished product of just one song. See people in the 70’s gave more of themselves at a lesser price. People today are just lazy, untalented and selfish. That is why you do not hear orchestral arrangements in today’s music. Why pay the musicians, if one can just sit behind a computer and punch out GARBAGE of noise people today call music….The 70’s was the pinnacle of how humans can create HAPPY, HEALTHY and heavenly orgasmic quality music for the masses and did so with no expense spared! Something the United States sure does miss..


Have a Nice Day