Yes, but WHERE it started?

[Nano]

I read several interesting threads about the first disco song, etc. Now I wonder not when, but where you spotted/were part of a proper disco scene. Where it was first?
A disco place in NY? Gay-friendly Frisco? A beachhouse in Miami? Or was it in Europe? Northern Soul parties? Proto-house Ibiza? Crazy Paris nights?
Make your guess...

BTW: some years ago I found a Time magazine from 1973 with an ad for the Sheraton Hotel in Buenos Aires. It pointed out a "discotheque" among its assets. Probably they weren't dancing disco music by then, but who knows...

[discotom73]

I've heard of different locations too particularly, Europe (Italy and Germany), New York, and Philadelphia as common places. Regardless of where disco began, each of the places showed the different side of disco. Not all disco sounded alike but each location brought in a unique sound to this beautiful genre!

[Salsoul1975]

Back when I used to go to the library and look at the old newspapers from the '70s on microfilm, I remember spotting an ad from late 1973 for a department store. I forget whether it was for Saks or Bloomie's, but it was an ad for ladies' eveningwear and the content used to describe the outfits used the word "disco". Not discotheque, but disco. I have to say, that caught my attention. Years before that, I remember looking at a 1974 issue of Michael's Thing magazine, which catered to the NYC gay nightlife. Lots of references to disco and discos...even a mention of Gloria Gaynor, and yes..the bathhouses. I remember seeing an ad in there for a club called The Pits. Does this ring a bell with anyone who was around during 1974-1975?

[Nano]

After a few months, I'm giving this thread a second chance because I still think it's an interesting issue. And because I maybe changed my views a little about this. I always assumed the USA and Europe (basically Miami and Munich) being responsible for the two basic "legs" of this phenomenon (I would not call it a "movement", being that it sprung out naturally and was not the result of a carefully intended strategy). That is:

Miami: T.K. Records' house band (driven by KC) records "Rock your baby" with some funky chords, a vocal by George McCrae and the use of a rhythm machine. This instrument would be also used by Timmy Thomas and in KC's own records, issued under the name KC & The Sunshine Band. Year: 1973.

Munich: Giorgio Moroder and his co-equiper Pete Bellotte record "Love to love you baby", kind of a dance version of Serge Gainsburg's "Je t'aime (moi non plus)", with a throaty female voice (American singer Donna Summer) sighing á la Jane Birkin. Minimal melody, stripped-down rhythm arrangement (in 4/4) and extra-length to favor its playing in dance clubs. Year: 1975.

Of course there is also TSOP and other focus places (but we could argue if Gamble & Huff, James Brown et al didn't really discover the sound, but tried it later on). Now, what my equation is lacking is the afro-latin part of the sound (somehow the fact that Giorgio is Italian is not enough for me). The use of congas and latin horns is usually credited to Salsoul and the early Seventies funk bands, but maybe it has some precedent across the Atlantic. Enter Barrabás. This Spanish band released their first album, Wild Safari, in 1972, and it's been said in this forum that Cerrone was "influenced" by their sound. Here's AllMusic.com review of that LP, written by some Andy Kellman:

"Barrabas' debut is the one that put them on the map, thanks to the surprise club hit "Woman." The Latin group — who were pioneers in a sense with their blend of Latin, African, and American influences — was one of the first international groups to leave its mark on the disco circuit. To this day, the song remains popular with disco/house DJs who have studied the histories of '70s clubs like the Paradise Garage and the Loft. Nothing else from Wild Safari caught on like "Woman," but the remainder sets the tone for what would follow from the group throughout the '70s: a combination of rock, dance music, soul with Latin roots, and an equal love for traditional pop structures and instrumental workouts."

That same year of 1972 the world was dancing to "Soul Makossa", an afro-beat number by a jazzman from Cameroon named Manu Dibango. How this African saxophonist came to suddenly make people dance in the clubs everywhere is beyond my comprehension (¿some A&R man had a hint and said "hey, let's play this in the clubs"? Who knows). But certainly both Dibango and Barrabás had club hits with Afro overtones one year before the birth of the Miami light funk/rhythm machine sound.

So a small African republic and Franco-ruled Spain were pioneers of the disco movement? :roll: Or maybe I'm stretching the line a bit too much? Care to comment?

[paul]

I was still in High School when disco started. It wasn't until around '77 that I got into my first disco in Connecticut.
As for where it really got it's start, who knows. I like to think it was a nexus(my 50 cents word for the day :-) ) of all the factors at the times in the various locations that gave us the wonderful music and clubs that took us to a whole new place. For example the end of the Vietnam War, the culmination of the various civil rights movements at the birth of the gay rights movement, the move away from 60s style music, marijuana and coke, etc.

[originalbigm]

Additional commentary regarding the early years of disco;)

http://www.rhino.com/features/liners/75595lin3.lasso

http://www.rhino.com/features/liners/75595lin4.lasso

http://www.rhino.com/features/liners/75595lin5.lasso

[QUINNY]

Barrabas was a Rock band first and foremost. It just so happened that their version of Rock had latin overtones due to their nationality.

There were many, many records that had dance floors heaving before Woman or Soul Makossa, that had latin/afro influences in them. I really don't know how these guys get away with what they write.

Have people forgotten Osibisa, Santana, El Chicano, the odd Jazz crossover (like Listen Here - Eddie harris) for example or the one hit wonders (like Sultana - Titanic) that would keep a dance floor busy pre- 1972?

[Nano]

Thanks Bigm for the links. The backstory on "Soul Makossa" is there and it's really interesting. Ditto for the other stuff.

I see what you mean, Q. It's true, the Barrabás albums also have ballads and some rock-like numbers. However, their funky openers sound all disco to me. Plus, what these tracks and "Soul Makossa" have in common is the straight rhythm -unlike Osibisa or Santana. I guess this quality made them easier to mix. But I'm just wondering here, I was a 10-year old by then.:-?

I have two older brothers, and they started to go to parties and clubs in the early Seventies. They say most of what they danced to was plain rock and roll and pop stuff, like Creedence, Led Zeppelin's "Living Loving Maid", the Stones' "Bitch" or "Brown Sugar", Hollies, Doobie Brothers... Mixed with some soul material like Aretha or The O'Jays. There were no mixes but jump cuts between the records. And I remember my sister buying an early Santana album, so they probably danced to it too. But it wasn't exactly like what we all remember now as the "disco experience". (That's how it was in Argentina anyway, and I can't speak for other countries.)

[tony98]

As far as the music is concerned you have to go back to 60's motown, and all those Holland,Dozier,Holland songs.Another influence where the Gamble & Huff productions of the late 60's, Jerry Butler & the Intruders, Archie Bell.

[Mixmachine]

So a small African republic and Franco-ruled Spain were pioneers of the disco movement? [IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/MACKMA%7E1/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]Or maybe I'm stretching the line a bit too much? Care to comment?

The use of congas and latin horns is usually credited to Salsoul and the early Seventies funk bands, but maybe it has some precedent across the Atlantic

In America latin influenced Disco was played every where during the early days of club dancing, Barrabas "Woman" and "Wild Safari" are classic Proto-Disco records especially popular with the Latino dancers that filled many of the early Disco clubs, even Tito Puente’s “Batuca” was popular, Titanics' "Rain 2000" and "Sultana", and to a lesser extend "Macumba" saw heavy club rotation, Osibissa was also very popular especially cuts like "Music for the Gong Gong" and "The Coffe song" among many others, Soul Makossa was hugely popular club record with the Latino population of NYC and other cities before it became a mega crossover Radio hit it did a year later, Manu Dibango toured with Fania all Stars.

New york's Salsa Label, Fania, released "Corazon" and "Waterbed’ by LTG Express, later "salsa" by Louis Ramirez,"My love Supreme" by Milton Hamilton who also worked on Yambu's "Sunny" also has that Latin sound.

Many other pre SNF popular records (called underground music by many) with the Latin sound came from abroad to America's clubs, Bands like Chocolats' "Ritmo Tropical" Bimbo Jet's (formely Chocolate boys) "El Bimbo" and "La Balanga" , Brazilia Carnaval by Peter Popper's and so many more were huge back in the day..

In 1975 there was a massive hit in Miami's clubs (I'm sure other places to) with a song from Argentina called "Palo Bonito" by the group Katunga, think Barrabas with Spanish singing.:p



http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/i/mixmach/...PaloBonito.jpg

Quinny look what I had in my collection , who knew???:???::p:p

Time Box "Beggin' boot:roll:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/m/i/mixmach/...BegginBoot.jpg

[Nano]

In 1975 there was a massive hit in Miami's clubs (I'm sure other places to) with a song from Argentina called "Palo Bonito" by the group Katunga, think Barrabas with Spanish singing.:p

Katunga in a Miami club!? :-o:-o :-o Who knew?

I remember Katunga very well. They used to appear in local beach movies next to balladeers like Cacho Castaña, Camilo Sesto or Manolo Galván. Needless to say this was pretty kitsch stuff. They were the only nice note in those crappy movies (some of them with "stars" as Susana Giménez -our Oprah- or now-serious-actor Ricardo Darín). They played mostly cumbia-like material, but I have a later album by them called Discotheque, a disco mix version of their early hits.
"Palo Bonito" here is almost a standard (it's used by football fans in their chants), but I think theirs is not the original version. Sounds like a Caribbean song to me (I see in the web that lately it was recorded by Chayanne). I'll try to check.

This is getting interesting :)

[Disco Funk]

In 72, The Trammps released 'Zing Went The Strings Of My Heart'. I'm not sure if there was another single released that year that would later appear on that Fabulous Trammps LP that included Rubberband Man, Zing..., etc...

The Spinners self-titled Thom Bell produced album also came out that year. Some people might argue that tracks like I'll Be Around and Could It Be I'm Falling In Love aren't true disco, but I think they're no different from say Rise by Herb Alpert, with a mid-tempo, tom tom beat.

I'm not sure if there were any other proto-disco tunes coming out of Philly in '72.

At the same time, there was some dance-tune/proto-disco music coming out of the south, like a lot of the Al Green tunes.

Disco Funk

[eddie]

As far as the music is concerned you have to go back to 60's motown, and all those Holland,Dozier,Holland songs.Another influence where the Gamble & Huff productions of the late 60's, Jerry Butler & the Intruders, Archie Bell.

This is 100% accurate!!! The sound became further enhanced when Gamble and Huff wanted an uptempo song for Harold Melvin and the Bluenotes second Philly International set. "The love I lost" was originally written as a ballad much like most of their entire debut PIR Lp. It was speed up and thus many others songs followed this pattern and style. Traditional African and Latin American music does employ the use of congas which was used dominantly in later disco like Salsoul.

Moroder has very little to do with the roots of disco.

[JussiK]

When new, was "The Love I Lost" called "disco" or "soul" - probably the latter, right? The Academia insists that the D word was used by a handful of pioneers during the early 70's but it apparently came to public consciouness with "Rock Your Baby" or "Lady Marmalade".

[QUINNY]

When new, was "The Love I Lost" called "disco" or "soul" - probably the latter, right? The Academia insists that the D word was used by a handful of pioneers during the early 70's but it apparently came to public consciouness with "Rock Your Baby" or "Lady Marmalade".

I think we can all agree that Disco started in '74/'75. Pre '74 it was likely to be called Funk, Soul, OR Club music. My own memory is vague 'cos it's soooo long ago, but somewhere in the deepest recesses, because since I was a very young person we always had Discos (mobile and fixed, mobiles flourishing in the late '60s), I'm pretty sure that good dance music would have been called Disco music. If one did the research, I'm pretty sure that there would be jingles that would have referred to 'Disco Dynamite' or something similar. Nothing to do with what emerged in '74/'75, but food for thought. Soooo, I don't think it's purely the academics who would think this and America in particular, was very slow to catch on.

Also, I've always found it rather odd that Rock Your Baby was one of the records that is quoted to define the genre, being as it was a low tempo (106 BPM?) number with drum machine, no horns and no strings. However, I DO remember the sudden upswelling of a feeling that times were changing and something was afoot. It WAS an absolute sensation.

[remicks]

However, I DO remember the sudden upswelling of a feeling that times were changing and something was afoot. It WAS an absolute sensation.

What a great way to put it .... and I know exactly what you mean Quinny ....something happened to music right then that was quite apparent at the time ( to me as a music nut then) ..... you could hear it .... feel it ....something new had happened ...similar to when Motown first emergerd or The Beatles ....it was a most exciting time .8)

One thing about ROCK YOUR BABY and ROCK THE BOAT busting loose at the same time ....an element of them both that I think signified this impending change was that lyrically these two songs were all about "rock" ... but yet they were far and removed from sounding anything like what one would expect in current rock songs .

The word "rock" had been hijacked ....
and along with it the command of what would become the defining music of the times .....8)8)8)

*****

[paul]

Exactly fellas! That's why I mentioned earlier about the move away from 60s style music. Not that it was bad but you definitely heard and felt something different in this new thing we later recognized as disco.

[Nano]

It's funny huh? That kind of "futuristic" feeling one has when listening to some particular sound for the first time. Then decades pass and those keyboards sound almost corny! :oops: That happened to me also with some prog rock stuff I listened to as a teenager.

Maybe the thing that set "Rock your baby" apart was the feeling that this kind of sound couldn't be repeated in a live set, partly because of the studio machines, and partly because these were not real bands but session musicians who reunited once to make a record (as opposed to the soul and funk bands who would play live concerts and have a similar live sound). Of course, eventually KC and his mates did form a band and were together for some time, but that would not be the rule for most disco acts. Hence the contribution of bubblegum and Moroder, who had produced bubblegum records in Germany prior to "Love to love you baby".

I tend to think that the disco phenomenon feeds itself from several sources and some of them blended during those years and others not. Giorgio's sound had little to do with the Salsoul sound, but he eventually embraced the electronic sound, and had in Donna a studio singer that blossomed into a real live performer. KC's sound also evolved. Salsoul, on the other hand, stood by their afro-latin satin sound. Funk bands jumped into the bandwagon adding some pop melodies to their own formula, etc.

Which would be the first "disco" song produced by PIR? "Love train"? "I'll always love my mama"? Their first 12' release? And what about Salsoul? Bernie lists 1974 as the year of the first Tom Moulton "extended" remixes.

[Mixmachine]

I posted this the last time we had this talk :icon_mrgreen:



For what is worth this songs are listed on the Discola USA Top 500 Discotheque songs of the 70’s chart.

#496 – Cloud Nine- Mongo Santamaria ‘69
#495- “Beggin”- Time Box ’68
#465 “Jetaime Moi non Plus – Jane Birkin & Serge Gainsbourg ‘69
#141 “Don’t bring back memories” Four Tops ‘69
“Don’t bring back Memories” by the Four Tops also released in ’69 and this song contains many early to mid ‘70’s club music ingredients, it has a ‘Bohannon’ drum beat style accentuated with cow bells and heavy congas, heavy funky bass, rhythm guitar, lavish ‘String’ section in the background, and those wonderful harmonized background vocals over strong lead male R&B voice (Levi Stubbs); I was told by clubbers and Djs of the day that this song was an early ‘Discothèque’ favorite hit in NY and other cities in the early 70’s." (Later re-done by Ray Martinez)





# 207 “Dance to the music” Sly and the Family Stone ‘69 (John Luongo 6:31 long remix released on 12" later)

# 243 “You keep me hanging on” Supremes ‘66
#433 “ You haven’t seen my love” Ones ‘67
# 466 “ NaNaNa kiss him goodbye” Steam ‘69
# 176 “ Just look what you have done to me” Brenda Halloway ’67 (hard to get best of)(never did) :???:




"It's a shame" by the Spinners (Motown), "My mistake" Ross/Gaye and "Running back and forth" by Edwin Starr ('69 War LP) among many others were Discotheque club hits in the early days...

[Mixmachine]

I think we can all agree that Disco started in '74/'75. Pre '74 it was likely to be called Funk, Soul, OR Club music.

Here in America and in my neck of the woods (Miami , FL) many club music collectors and early Disco club dancers lumped every thing played in pre '75 (or there abouts) early clubs under the "underground music" tag, this music was all but un-known to the masses, some r&b cuts maybe only receiving air play in small local alternative ethnics urban stations. During this years only a small percentage of the over all local population knew of Discotheques, mostly young latins that used to alternate between the Salsa clubs and Discos.

[Nano]

But "Rock your baby" did get radio airplay right on? Or was it kinda an "underground" club hit first, like "Soul Makossa"?
Mixmachine, being from Miami I guess you're the man to answer this one.

The Sly & TFS track that sounds a bit disco to me is "Thank you for letting be mice elf again" or whatever that's spelled. Didn't this stuff cross over to the white radio stations?

[Disco Funk]

Which would be the first "disco" song produced by PIR? "Love train"? "I'll always love my mama"? Their first 12' release? And what about Salsoul? Bernie lists 1974 as the year of the first Tom Moulton "extended" remixes.

Well, if you count the North Bay label, which was apparently a testing ground for PIR, Gamble & Huff put out a single by The Family (AKA MFSB) - Family Affair/Nation Time. Family Affair appeared on the first MFSB album, while Nation Time had vocals added and was on the Ebony's self-titled album.

In '73, PIR put out albums by MFSB (self-titled and Love Is The Message); Harold Melvin & The Bluenotes (Blacks & Blues w/ The Love I Lost); The Ebonys (self-titled w/ tracks like Hook Up & Get Down).

Love Train was actually on Backstabbers from '72, but hit number one on the charts in '73. My favourite cut from that album is actually not the familiar tracks, like Backstabbers, LT or 992 Arguments. It's 'When The World Is At Peace'. That track is a tough slice of good ole funk. Highly recommended for funk fans.

Disco Funk

[Mixmachine]

But "Rock your baby" did get radio airplay right on? Or was it kinda an "underground" club hit first, like "Soul Makossa"?
Mixmachine, being from Miami I guess you're the man to answer this one.

I personally never consider “Rock your baby” ‘underground’, I guess it was to well known from the very beginning and easy to find (7” vinyl) everywhere, as far as I can remember “Rock your baby” was all over the local Black Radio AM stations first, (cool then) but very soon after it broke big and crossed over to the rest of the Radio Stations, by then the over - exposure wore off the novelty of this new sound and made it a bit tiring after a while since this song was played every where!!! In clothing stores (No Malls yet I think), Hair Saloons/Barber shops, Hotel lobbies in Miami Beach, Parties, apartment buildings hall ways you name it.!!!!!

At the time I never thought of “Rock your baby” as a club record, more of an R&B pop number, the claims that this was one of the first “Disco Music” record I only read recently, and kind of agree, but I certainly never thought much about it in those terms before.

But then again in ’74 I was still in HS so my dancing experience to this cut was limited to only Beach/Dance Hall Parties and such so I can’t speak about if it was a club hit first for any extended period like “Makossa”, (which every one involved remembers) but I will ask around, although I doubt anyone is going to remember such details from so long ago..

[JussiK]

II'm pretty sure that good dance music would have been called Disco music. If one did the research, I'm pretty sure that there would be jingles that would have referred to 'Disco Dynamite' or something similar.

Yes, the Campbell etc. library music albums do just that, they contain 2 minute snippets with descriptions like "driving percussion, happy disco atmosphere," and so on, and they were using the word already in ´72 and ´73. And what about the Disco Direction 7-inch realeses - weren't they like half northern soul half disco-ish boogie? Things like "Footsee" and such.