Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
Sorry but I'm in rant mode tonight! I'm getting so naffed off with buying 'original' CDs (not compilations) only to find that some tracks have been 'tampered with' in some way. I bought the Celi Bee 'Wings Of Love' CD to find that the title track was half the length that it should've been & I also found on a recent CD of Shalamar's 'Big Fun' that 'Right In The Socket' was a dreadful shortened remix. :evil: Why do the record companies do this? I can sort of understand this happening on cheapo compilations but when the CD has the original tracklisting & artwork & everything you expect the original LP for chrissakes. I think I'm gonna only buy the original 2nd-hand vinyl & get that software that 'cleans up' the sound from now on. :-?
No Longer Charting
Maybe the original master tapes are dodgy or can't be located. I know from my own experience that Ampex tapes haven't faired too well over the course of time. Some of my old master tapes just won't play anymore and we're talking tapes that are maybe 10-12 years old, not 25-30, as in the case of the old Disco masters.
DiscoMusic.com Owner / Administrator
Quinny, so true about master tapes oxidizing..., but if that were the case the label could easily have taken it from clean vinyl.
I encourage all members and visitors to post such comments on the respective pages in the CD section so that others may know about these problems.
Platinum Record [Level 8]
Yes, I dislike CDs mastered from degraded tapes or scratchy old records. My first experience with this was the George McCrae 'Rock Your Baby' CD released in the early 90's. I was so psyched buying it, hoping to get a great sounding version, only to find a number of the tracks had pieces of the left or right channel missing.
Recent disappointments include the Stratavarious CD, which sounds like they took an old record from a DJ booth and just recorded it straight instead of trying to clean it up. Also, the Loose Change/TJM 2 on 1 CD from the UK was horrible. The Loose Change stuff sounded like it was also taken from an old worn vinyl copy (thankfully I already had the Japanese CD); while the TJM stuff was edited! The songs literally faded out at the breaks in the middle, so 10 minute songs were 5 minutes, etc... And then there was that Jesse Green Hot Productions CD. I should have listened to the audio samples on Amazon. I've never had a problem with Hot Productions doing this, and the song titles were all from the Nice & Slow LP, so I figured the CD was all original recordings. Wrong! They were horrible 90's remakes done on a Casio keyboard. Only Nice & Slow and Flip were original versions.
Disco Funk
Chart Hit [Level 6]
It's too bad there are many disco records which haven't been well preserved.. I wonder if the small budgets of these reissue labels are part of the reason why they end up using poor vinyl transfers.. I might be wrong, but I think there is a costly process (which I think involves putting the tapes in some kind of oven) that is supposed to help restore tapes for remastering..
I have that Stratavarious CD, that is a pretty sub-par reissue.. I've been let down by many Hot Productions CDs too, but recently I've come across some of their album reissues that have actually been well done, like they actually did use the original masters for once.
Chart Hit [Level 6]
Damn, my fav. track on that album.. I'm curious; which reissue was this exactly? Was it the US reissue, the Unidisc reissue or one of the UK ones on Sequel? I've been wanting to get this album on CD for a while now..Originally Written by SandraDee
Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
That process is only necessary if the tape suffers from what is called "sticky tape syndrome", which affects a lot of the professional recordings made in the 70s and 80s.
Unfortunately, one has to know that the tape potentially has this problem before playing it, otherwise it will be destroyed upon playback.
I think the problem with most disco albums is that the master tapes cannot be found. A lot of the smaller labels have gone out of business or been bought up, and things get lost under all the paperwork. Furthermore, it was probably believed that many of these recordings had no further commercial potential so many masters have potentially been discarded.
Platinum Record [Level 8]
Even the Godfather of Soul, James Brown's, recordings have suffered from poor storage. Body Heat was reissued on one of those funk compilations of his and was damaged in one section. But I imagine there are copies of the masters kicking about that were in good shape. The Japanese, for instance, have been putting out awesome soul, funk, and disco reissues for decades. I doubt they've gone to the US and looked for the original tapes there.
Disco Funk
Chart Hit [Level 6]
Thanks for the answer! Interesting stuff.. I knew someone here would know.. Speaking of the paperwork, I've often wondered how hard it must be to track down those who own the back-catalogues of some of the smaller, long defunct labels, let alone the master tapes. Add to that the uncertainty of whether the masters are recoverable or not. It's a wonder any of that stuff sees the light of day on CD (particularly on those rarities compilations).
No Longer Charting
Personally, I have yet to find a needle drop that would sound as good as that same track taken from master tape and who's to say that good quality vinyl sources can be located for certain tracks or those pressings were ever any good?
As for drop out on one side of the stereo image, this is probably down to laziness on the part of the remastering engineer. You'll find that most of these re-isssue jobs are done 'on the cheap' because there is very little money to be made. Part of a cheap job is to employ an engineer who doesn't listen to everything with a critical ear using headphones. Most likely, they start the tape, listen for a minute or so until they've had enough, get on with something else and only listen to the final minute or so, just to check that it's still playing O.K. Of course, a lot of things can happen in between.
One of the absolute worst re-issue jobs I've ever hear is on the Danny Krivit Grass Roots CD. During Wild Safari by Barrabas, firstly the record jumps at one point and secondly it starts in mono and then suddenly jumps to life in stereo after roughly a minute. What the hell went on there? I imagine the master tape was damaged beyond use for the first section and the only copy he had was a mono pressing. That's the kindest scenario I can come up with.
Platinum Record [Level 8]
There's a Spanish repressing of the Barrabas album that sounds great. I was under the impression most of the tracks on those Grassroots compilations were taken from vinyl sources. I'll have to give them a listen again on headphones.
By 'repressing', I mean CD reissue, not vinyl repressing.
Disco Funk
Chart Hit [Level 6]
I have often wondered the reasons why some of our beloved disco albums have seen the light of day on cd. It's great to see an actual Prelude album out in digital format but surely there are no financial gains. I'm afraid I'm too jaded to think that someone with just a love for past disco music wanted to see them re-released with no intentions of even getting the money back on the investment.
Is it not that costly to re-issue albums to cd? Who comes up with the idea? There must be a friend or spouse who asks 'are you nuts? Who's going to buy that?'
I've never worked within the music industry other than being a dj so my knowledge of production is limited. My curiousity, however, is expansive.
Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
It's rare, but it does happen. This is an odd example, but there are a couple of pieces on A Charlie Brown Christmas by the Vince Guaraldi Trio where the original vinyl pressings will sound better than the CDs, because the master tapes have been badly worn over the years (this was confirmed by ace mastering engineer Steve Hoffman). The flunkies at Fantasy never thought to make decent back-ups before it was too late.
Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
It was a UK Sequel one & it was coupled with '3 For Love' LP on one CD. Good value I s'pose but.....
Can I just add that the sound quality of both CDs was excellent, it was just that they weren't quite the original mixes/lengths.
Underground Hit [Level 5]
The LP in question was released TWICE. The second time the longer versions were "stripped in".
It was a UK Sequel one & it was coupled with '3 For Love' LP on one CD. Good value I s'pose but.....
Can I just add that the sound quality of both CDs was excellent, it was just that they weren't quite the original mixes/lengths.
The CURRENT compilers may not have known this, and when they did their research STOPPED at the original reels- with the shorter versions.
Thus your Shalamar CD reissue is not incorrect, but it is not "right" either since it doesn't replicate the version of the LP that YOU purchased.
A lot of producers face this problem as tapes are mislabelled, and often when changes are made there is no written LOG to back it up. And then 20-25 years on things are gonna happen...
that only someone who was THERE would know what to look for.
Another example of this is the CD reissue of the Dee Dee Bridgewater "Bad for me" CD. My copy of the LP has the Larry Levan 8 minute "Bad for me" remix "stripped in", but the first pressings did NOT...and guess what version is on the CD? You guessed it...the SHORT version.
As for the stereo/mono thing that someone mentioned on a Danny Krivit reissue.....it was tape damage I am SURE~!!. I pulled the same stunt on a Jon Lucien reissue I worked on for Razor and Tie where an orchestral intro had damage about 3 seconds in for a 4 second duration. We opened in mono and then AFTER the damage...."opened" slowly to Stereo. It worked for THAT tune....but I dont envision it working for many others, we got lucky.
Underground Hit [Level 5]
Guys like me walk in or email our label contacts and pitch an idea. It may be a straight LP reissue or one with bonus tracks (remixes etc.) or a compilation of an act.
From there the label either says yes or no. Usually it is their sales department that shoots it down based on their (often right) sales projections. In other words "you nuts? Who's going to but that?"
It is not generally costly. Unless tapes have to be baked, or extensive digital reconstruction has to be done (usually to fill in drop outs from the audio master. It is not automatic and is labor intensive). Package design factors in (a simple four panel book? A 10 page bio? Fold out? Heavy gloss? Sparkles? Cream Filling?)...It all adds to the cost.
Generally though the masters are already PAID for, there is no NEW recording going on (unless you are remixing) and even there...technology is on your side. Recording AND engineering costs have dropped DRAMATICALLY over the last 20 years. But then so have record SALES. (!!)
A personal note and part of the problem:
I used to think all reissue departments were staffed by racists. They all seemed to HATE all "black" and disco music. But as I learned and moved thru labels MORE....I noticed that ALL of the labels reissue departments are headed by and staffed by all the guys that used to be ROCK A&R in the 80's or 90's~!! Hence it is NOT racism (well, in a couple cases it is...) overall, but more of a feeling of "this is what we know". And then you understand why things happen and more importantly...DONT.
Wanna know why Universal can do 40 Rod Stewart CD reissues and NO Alton McClain and Destiny or Alicia Myers? Re-read the previous sentence.....
There is plenty of EXCELLENT CD reissue work going on WORLDWIDE. I am USA based and I can say quite happily that the most EXCITING work is going on in territories OTHER than the USA~!!
PTG in France has licensed STARPOINT LPS!!
P-VINE in JAPAN is releasing LENNY WILLIAMS ABC lps~!!
Bionic Boogie AND EL Coco lps~!!
WEA in the UK does PHENOMENAL compilations with all sorts of soul and disco acts~!!
EXPANSION RECORDS UK~!! Ralph Tee rules~!!
SOUL JAZZ UK~!! (Finally the Tom Moulton compilation is coming with LOST REMIXES~!!)
And here, in the USA I may actually slide one thru every 18 months or so. Look all over, do NOT be afraid to buy imports.
All is good, but it can be better........
Platinum Record [Level 8]
Thanks for that insight into how things work in the music corporations Donald. I had a feeling it was more about people who were just releasing either what they personally liked, or were just not willing to take a chance on an album not likely to rake in tons of money. All of the great releases seem to be happening overseas rather than at home in the US. Japan and England are the best 70's funk/soul/disco reissuers as far as I can tell. One guy in the US who seems to know what's going on is Harry Weinger at Universal. I remember he used to even frequent usenet groups like rec.music.funky back in the day to discuss music. I don't know if he still does. It would be cool finding out about stuff he was working on.
Oh well, as long as the Brits and Japanese are putting out the LPs, that's better than nothing.
Disco Funk
*** Forum Leader / Moderator ***
I always wonder why the German ZYX label can put rare gold on their compilations but never releases the original albums. Is it also a question of rights or do they also fear that nobody will buy it????
Maybe the net will be the future? Then you don't have to worry about retailing, packages, printing. Just offer the download for a reasonable price.
DiscoMusic.com Owner / Administrator
Donald,
Thanks for the insight into the reissue world. The one thing I don't understand though: since Japanese and British companies can reissue rare titles, is it that US labels demand a higher ROI?
John Parker from Robbins who put out the excellent Super Rare Disco series said they never sold many of them even though almost everyone on this site has bought them so it leaves me scratching my head in disbelief. Is there a target number the label shoots for?
No Longer Charting
For a small time Disco or funk re-release or compilation, I can't see them pressing up more than 10,000 CDs as an initial run. They're gonna cost about 70 cents each (tops) to press/produce, maybe as much again to market and about the same anmount again for copyright. Then you might have to pay another 70 cents for licencing. So maybe an outlay of $28,000 for 10,000 CDs with a retail price of say $9.99. The dealer price would be around $6.50 and distribution can cost a further $1.30. After all that, the profit margin to the record company would be $6.50 less $1.30 less $2.80, which equals $2.40. However, all the costs would have to be paid within 90 days of pressing and it might take 5 years to sell out. So, they're gonna be pretty cautious, aren't they?
Small companies are hit worst of all, 'cos they pretty quicky have a negative cash flow, unless they're very clever or very lucky. Even the majors have the same poor cashflow if they're not careful, but they have the advantage of knowing that their product can be put into most outlets, so unless they make a hugely wrong guestimation of how many units a CD will sell and vastly overdo it on the numbers pressed, they have a better chance of balancing the books. However, unless a title will sell significant numbers, why are they gonna bother. Anyone here go to work for free or for a negative sum?
Chart Hit [Level 6]
That's pretty well where my thought is on this. Since the advent of compact discs twenty years ago (here I am talking about cds when they're slowly dwindling in popularity :lol: ), I've been amazed at what has been issued. Music, unfortunately, has been a consumer product (for the most part)...and the product relies heavily on the trend happening at that point in time. Thus we end up with a lot of here today, what-was-the-name-of-that-group tomorrow. To re-issue some remote album from the past would require a lot of risk...mostly dependent on the purists out there who aren't only concentrated on today's charts.
So here's a question to DonaldCleveland or others with some clout :) : how much influence could a website such as this have to get something re-issued? Have you taken ideas from this board?
Underground Hit [Level 5]
Hey disco funk...it was Harry Weinger who got me started in the business~!! I wrote him and Bill Levinson a letter..and got invited for lunch....and since then I've been either working on my own projects or consulting on others. Sometimes it's a LOT of work....sometimes NONE. That's why they call it FREELANCE.
I used to post on rec.music.funky too. I have NEVER wanted to physically assault so many people in my LIFE. I used to post under the name soul911. I was the guy always DEFENDING Harry Weinger. No one else (meaning a catalogue A&R) was putting themselves OUT THERE like he was....and I guess he was the recipient of all the pent up emotion as a result. Would have been nice if that emotion were love(!)....but it was often vitriolic hatred of the highest order~!!
Websites and posts can have influence. But the results can be mixed depending upon WHOM is extrapolating the info.
CD sales are shrinking as QUINNY pointed out. The record companies have NO ONE TO BLAME BUT THEMSELVES. They conditioned consumers to NOT EXPECT TO GET WHAT THEY WANTED (reissues or even a decent new hit album) AND CHASED THEM (Us) AWAY.
They gave us lousy sounding discs by CORPORATE MANDATE (Sony) made by executives who did not fully understand the technology. (Sony's RULE was no tape hiss on reissue CDs. How do you eliminate hiss without compromising the high end of the spectrum when the original electronics as well as the tape storage medium...HISSED?)
We aged and died. That sounds simple and crass, but by definition the audience for reissues is an aging one. Look at it this way...I was 24 years old when I purchased my first CD(s).
Only NOW...am I getting Eddie Kendricks (as an example) full reissues. I am 43 years old now. I have lost so MANY record buying contemporaries in that time period. Record companies drag their asses.....no one is AROUND to buy...or even cares anymore. We got chased away remember? Or passed away.
"Terrestrial" radio does NOT do its part. Consolidated ownership has stripped the landscape of diversity. The only diversity left is will we hear 2 Ashlee Simpson records at the SAME TIME every day for a 7 day period....or a 10 day period? Wait I have the answer...but first FAT JOE and TERROR SQUAD (sigh)~!!
Too MANY releases to make STOCKHOLDERS happy and drive up "market share". Ever look at a WEEK of new releases on Amazon? An average of 12,000 NEW CDs every SINGLE week.
How can we ever keep up? There are quite honestly CDs released that have sold 30 copies or LESS over a three year period...did you know that?
Downloading was a sociallly significant phenomenon which started (at first) as a result of all those hardcore collectors looking for those songs which THEY COULD NOT FIND at the record/CD store. As computer prices dropped and use spread, the high minded reasons for downloading and file-sharing chaged to the lowest common denominator which in most cases is "This CD sucks, cant I just get that one song I like?"
Record companies ELIMINATED the SINGLE. The LIE was it cost MORE to sell that ONE song than it did a whole CD. HAHAHAH~!! Remember when you heard that....and believed it?
Much as I wanna type MORE...I am at my "real" job now...so I'll rejoin this and other discussions later. THANKS for letting me vent.
Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
That seems to explain the situation with 'Get disconnected'.
Chart Hit [Level 6]
Thanks for sharing! I think it's always fascinating to get the 'scoop' on things and it's always those who work the 9 to 5 (or whatever) that knows the truth...regardless of what industry it is. As for me, Joe Public Consumer who has this obsessively passionate taste for music, I'm the one who has to ultimately deal with corporate decisions. "What the hell is this? I bought this album for that song and they cut the last couple minutes away!"
Going back, I remember when cds first came out. We all bitched about the high price of them. They were more than double the price of vinyl at the time but we were all promised that the price would drop once demand for cds grew. I believe that we were also promised that vinyl albums would still be produced. Of course, none of that happened. We all got accustomed to spending a bit more for our music. So what?! We just had to demand more money at our jobs. So what?! Our wages went up, management complains of production costs, puts the product price up....and, well, you get the point. :lol:
I also saw everyone that I knew buy cds to replace ALL of their albums. Fortunately, those people didn't need to hunt high and low for their Fleetwood Mac or Boston albums. They were right there beside the toy section at Walmart at reduced cost too. I guess that's the price we pay for having out of the ordinary tastes. (Although imagine my pure delight in finding the "Best Disco Album In The Universe" series of cds right there in Walmart at incredibly low prices! I had to control my giddiness around all those moms and screaming children.) The elimination of the single was silly. I think that that's more than apparent now with the uncontrollable amounts of downloading going on...usually because kids (just like when we were young), don't want the entire album for that one song.
The one positive in all of this though is that love of music still exists. Being a dj and also scouting websites dedicated to specific music genres pacifies me with the knowledge that we aren't just letting this all go. Sure, there are hordes of people lost in their overly stressful, busy lives...too busy to remember to dance... but there are countless others keeping music at the centre of their lives. And a lot of young people too which is very encouraging.
Oy...kinda off topic...ummm...what was the point here? Oh yeah....cds and annoying people who insist on buying music not of the norm.... :lol:
Double Platinum Record [Level 9]
****
Donald .....what a great revealing post..... one of the best I've ever come across here !!! Please post more ....
All the monkey business of the record labels over the years ... I was in retail for years ..... and so many endless times they were their own worst enemy .
And you are right .... the same things were going on in the 70's .... the music business was entrenched in AOR .... and the new cash cow ....FM radio ..... and disco was seen as a threat to their dominance . Those record label reps ...they hated having to deal with disco ( R&B too ) They often still had their hippy ponytails and basically wanted to promote and display Asylum type artists ...... ( no wonder Motown wanted no part of them)
The labels only really got behind disco when they realized the $$$$$ to be had ...but then , when everyone was trying to get a slice of the pie ...the pie got divided so very thinly ...that ... this was misread as unsuccessful .....
( Just review the massive amount of product the labels flooded the market with in 1979 and then try to figure out how the record buying public could possibly have supported it all :P )
I , like you, could gone on & on ...and often do ........ but from all that I know .... I do not feel sorry for the current conglomerate labels one bit .... and quite frankly don't think they deserve to make even one more penny from the disco music of the seventies which they so uncaringly tossed aside .
*****
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