The gay pride debate...

**Jeff H** · July 21st, 2002, 09:38 AM

I know plenty of "Liberals" who don't like gays. Personally, I don't have a problem with their life style--to each his own. What I disagree with is the way they "advertise" themselves. Just this morning I read in this forum about a Gay parade. Hell, you don't see Straights holding "Straight parades" or advertising their "straightness" to society. I've always said this: "If you're good, you don't contantly have to parade or announce yourself or group. Your actions speak for themselves. Only the mediocre has to constantly remind us 'how great they are".
---------------------------------------------------------------It's a good thing I didn't read this thread until today or there would have been some real scathing comments made on my part.

I copied Nrg's post from the end of the South American politics thread because it's something that's been bugging me since Fantomass posted it. Like Nrg, I didn't read that post until after the Ass was banned, so I wasn't going to bother addressing it. But since Nrg brought it up...

When I was younger (much!), I remember asking my mother once that since we have Mother's Day and Father's Day, how come there's no Children's Day. And see said, "Because every day is Children's Day."

The same goes for gay pride celebrations. EVERY DAY is Straight Pride Day: in the streets, at work, in churches, on TV, in movies, in magazines, at sporting events, etc., etc. There's a "parade" of straight pride every weekend in the strip of bars and nightclubs not far from my house. The heterosexual "lifestyle" (I hate that word!) is all around us. Straight people never give a second thought to talking about their spouses or friends at work, to holding hands in the street, on seeing straight love and sex on TV or in the movies.

Gay people don't have that luxury. A lot of gay people CAN'T talk about their private lives at work, in most cities gay couples wouldn't dare hold hands in the street, and if a gay relationship (or, god forbid, gay sex) is on TV or in a movie, it's still considered a big deal or for mature audiences. (When is Will going to get laid anyway?!)

I do believe that maybe the phrase "gay pride" is not the best choice. I'm not "proud" to be gay; it's just who I am. But I'm not ashamed of it either, and I guess that's how the phrase was coined: pride = not ashamed. Personally I think the celebrations should be about gay "visibility," since the more people come out and become visible, the more the rest of the world gets to see that we're not freaks and child-molesters. We're not here to subvert, convert or pervert the mainstream (and overwhelmingly) straight world, just take our fair place in it.

So allow us that one damn day, OK? (If the Ass is back here under a new name, I hope he chokes on this.)

OK, someone else can have the soapbox now.

Thanks for listening.

_________________
"...a once in a lifetime feeling that returns every week..."

[ This Message was edited by: Jeff H on 2002-07-21 10:48 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Jeff H on 2002-07-22 06:26 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Jeff H on 2002-07-22 06:27 ]

**nrgbeat** · July 21st, 2002, 10:05 AM

I agree with everything that's been said.

My only complaint about gay pride parades is every time I see pictures of one they show guys in drag, in leather, lesbians covered in tattoos with butch haircuts,etc. and I feel this further propels the stereotypes.

**paul** · July 21st, 2002, 02:22 PM

I think this is interesting folks, especially with the number of gay members (so to speak) here. I would like to see more on this in this thread. I say this because Al Rantel (Marky knows who this is) gives me the impression he is cool to the parades for the reasons nrg stated. Al is also gay by the way.

**markydefad** · July 21st, 2002, 03:21 PM

Paul, I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. Are you trying to gauge how the rest of us feel regarding nrgbeat's comments on the typical Gay Day Parade media coverage?

I would tend to agree that the more sensational folks get their pictures in the papers. I mean, they give better headlines, i.e. sell more papers. The same applies to straights. Is the Star gonna print a photo of Anna Nicole Smith and her ta-tas falling out of her dress or Meryl Streep taking her children to a museum? Anna Nicole sells more papers--so do tattooed Dykes on Bikes.

Hey, they are all a part of the "community"--so I can't deny them their coverage too. But the gay dentist and his life-partner who vote regularly in elections, pay their taxes, keep their lawns immaculate, participate in all neighborhood functions, and attend church every Sunday morning are part of the "community" also. Their photos are ususally missing from the newspaper's coverage.

Changing the subject a bit, I've been thinking about whether the strong "gay influence" at this site makes some people feel a tad uncomfortable here. It's like Jeff described in his earlier post. All of a sudden the world they've known has been turned upside down and they feel like the minority. They don't speak "Gay"!!!! (Remember, someone made that exact comment). Hey, I don't speak Spanish. Do I feel left out when someone speaks it to a fellow, Spanish-speaking member? Maybe, but not really. I just figure it's a bonding process between those of you who speak that language. The "Gay Speak" is not meant to exclude folks who aren't gay; we're just bonding. I am guilty of this, BUT I figure those who don't get it will just go on to another topic or ask me what the hell I'm talking about.

Obviously, we all gravitate to certain people more than others--just as in life. Those people who amuse us or intrigue us or whatever, get more of our attention. It doesn't mean we don't read or care what others post. I like it when everyone is participating and expressing their views--NOT just my "favorites".

All gay men and women are asking for from society is "a place at the table". We get up and go to work, pay taxes, vote in our elections, try to be good citizens. But there are laws that prohibit us from fully sharing the benefits that straight people take for granted. All we want is some equity on that playing field. As an example, I would cite the recent brouhaha regarding domestic partners of gays killed in the World Trade Center tragedy being totally excluded from any benefits that straights are entitled to. Things like this continue to incense us.

I don't think I answered your question, Paul. BUT those were some things that were on my mind.

**paul** · July 22nd, 2002, 01:03 AM

Wow...thanks Marky. You not only answered my question better than I phrased it, your statement about bonding IMHO holds true for all the subgroups we all gravitate at times. I also see no problems with it.
As for my original question. It dealt more with the images portrayed in these parades being beneficial to the community. I kinda like some the over the top styles

**sutnop** · July 22nd, 2002, 10:22 AM

I think this whole debate about
gay and straight has gone too far
I have never bothered comenting on it

Because I care as much for people's sexuality
as their hair color
(in other words IT DOESN'T MATTER)

I mean everybody is talking about this in the typical black or whiten fashion
you are either in or out
queer or straight

I mean don't you people think you are being a bit mean and unfair
to all the Bi People how do you think they are feeling

I Personally don't care to question anybodies sexuality at this forum

As I hope nobody will question mine

The Typical American thing is to put labels on everything people feel ineed of belonging to a label so they even voluntairly label themselves!!! (Crazy)

We are all individuals
by trying to belong to a group we suspend our creativity and individual flair!

I think we should all hold our own
And not try to represent different groups

wheather its ethnicity, colour, hair style or sexuality.

"I am all Men As I am no Man"
Cajus Caligula

**nrgbeat** · July 22nd, 2002, 10:29 AM

On 2002-07-22 11:22, sutnop wrote:
I think this whole debate about
gay and straight has gone too far
I have never bothered comenting on it

Because I care as much for people's sexuality
as their hair color
(in other words IT DOESN'T MATTER)

I mean everybody is talking about this in the typical black or whiten fashion
you are either in or out
queer or straight

I mean don't you people think you are being a bit mean and unfair
to all the Bi People how do you think they are feeling

I Personally don't care to question anybodies sexuality at this forum

As I hope nobody will question mine

The Typical American thing is to put labels on everything people feel ineed of belonging to a label so they even voluntairly label themselves!!! (Crazy)

Sutnop, are you American?

**NickNack** · July 22nd, 2002, 04:07 PM

On 2002-07-22 02:03, paul wrote:
Wow...thanks Marky. You not only answered my question better than I phrased it, your statement about bonding IMHO holds true for all the subgroups we all gravitate at times. I also see no problems with it.
As for my original question. It dealt more with the images portrayed in these parades being beneficial to the community. I kinda like some the over the top styles

First, let me say Mark and Jeff said just about all that needs to be said. And said it very well. As for those 'stereotypes-on-parade, it used to bother me, but that's the media's style, and they do it to ALL groups to make that buck. GAYS = QUEENS; BLACKS = CRIME; LATINO = ILLEGAL ALIEN; you get the picture and it's THAT PICTURE the media keeps up front for the dollar and the Nielsen's. It's up to all of us to get the media to change that practice.

Back to the "queens": Now when I see them on camera I think, they were the ones kicking ass at Stonewall. They SHOULD BE on camera because we wouldn't be marching without them.

**markydefad** · July 22nd, 2002, 04:27 PM

On 2002-07-22 17:07, NickNack wrote:
Back to the "queens": Now when I see them on camera I think, they were the ones kicking ass at Stonewall. They SHOULD BE on camera because we wouldn't be marching without them.

Excellent point, Nicky. We often forget that it was the Drag Queens who most fiercely fought the cops at the legendary Stonewall raid in NYC--the impetus for all the Gay Pride Parades. (Also, Judy Garland's death had just occurred. The two facts seemed linked by historians).

**Nano** · July 22nd, 2002, 07:10 PM

Hey guys, I don't mind the "gay lingo", in fact I learned a couple of things... Don't worry for ours 'minority'!

A year ago I found and old compilation book with articles from Rolling Stone magazine. I read eagerly an article on the gay pride issue, written in the Seventies I think. It was the first time I got the full story about what happened in the USA in those years, the Stonewall incident, San Francisco, etc. etc. Really amazing stuff for me, and I think many heteros ignore that story.
Another thing I read (yes, I read too much) was filmmaker Derek Jarman's memory book "At your own risk" (borrowed from a gay friend), which tells that story on the British side. Another compelling read, even as he does nothing to be sympathetic with heteros... and his sincerity at that was also illuminating. (Then, he died of AIDS so he had the right for being pissed off, I guess.)
I just wanted to know if any of you read Jarman's book, what do you think of his views on this issue, etc.
I repeat: me and many more people read and learn about how other kinds of people lives, thinks, etc. (Even with the traffic cones, gelled fists and all

)

**Rab** · August 6th, 2002, 02:33 PM

I find if amazing that there are people that don't understand the purpose of "Gay Pride"? There is probably no other group of people that have been stripped of their pride and integrity more than homosexual people. Gays have been made to feel ashamed and humiliated for who they are to the point where their survival has depended on their invisibility. What many straight people don't seem to get, is that they could have been born gay as well. Sexual orientation is not a choice, just like ethnicity or gender.

Straight boys and disco go together about as well as ketchup and ice cream...

[ This Message was edited by: Rab on 2002-08-06 15:36 ]

[ This Message was edited by: rab on 2002-08-24 21:10 ]

**nrgbeat** · August 6th, 2002, 02:54 PM

I'd like to add straight boys and gay boys go together like ketchup and ice cream.

**markydefad** · August 6th, 2002, 02:55 PM

Well, Rab, I get your point--BUT the beauty of this site is that Straight GUYS & Girls and Gay Guys & Girls CAN get together and bond and exchange information about their mutual love of Disco.

Bernie is a STRAIGHT GUY and he created this little playground for all of us to enjoy. Lots of other regular contributors are hetero. We all get along great. We've only had a few who felt the need to antagonize and create disharmony.

Otherwise, I think the straight/hetero/breeder folks here are most enlightened and very entertaining.

And I appreciate their cyber-friendship.

**paul** · August 6th, 2002, 03:07 PM

The feeling is mutual Marky. It's nice to share even a little love with everyone regardless.

**Jeff H** · August 6th, 2002, 04:59 PM

What you guys are saying is true, of course, but in Rab's defense, until I became a regular at this site I believed disco was pretty much a gay thing too.

Most of the places I had danced were gay clubs, most of the DJs and other fans I knew were also gay. All the straight people I knew had very negative opinions about disco--if they thought about it at all. ("Where do you hear this kind of music?" was a typical comment--and it wasn't meant as a compliment.)

So I was surprised when I first started visiting this site to find that the posters weren't all gay guys--that there straight guys, and gay and straight women too. You learn something new every day.

But gay or straight, male or female, it's just nice to find a group of people who appreciate the same music I do, and when they say "Where did you hear THAT?" really are interested!

_________________
"...a once in a lifetime feeling that returns every week..."

[ This Message was edited by: Jeff H on 2002-08-06 18:00 ]

**Outsider** · August 6th, 2002, 05:17 PM

Straight boys and disco go together about as well as ketchup and ice cream...

I'm a straight boy and I love disco. I never thought of disco as being strictly a gay thing. That's just a stereotype. Likewise, I'm sure that there are gays who love metal.

One thing about disco is that it attracts people of all races, genders, and sexual orientations, and this message board is proof of that.

**nrgbeat** · August 6th, 2002, 05:31 PM

On 2002-08-06 17:59, Jeff H wrote:
What you guys are saying is true, of course, but in Rab's defense, until I became a regular at this site I believed disco was pretty much a gay thing too.

Most of the places I had danced were gay clubs, most of the DJs and other fans I knew were also gay. All the straight people I knew had very negative opinions about disco--if they thought about it at all. ("Where do you hear this kind of music?" was a typical comment--and it wasn't meant as a compliment.)

So I was surprised when I first started visiting this site to find that the posters weren't all gay guys--that there straight guys, and gay and straight women too. You learn something new every day.

But gay or straight, male or female, it's just nice to find a group of people who appreciate the same music I do, and when they say "Where did you hear THAT?" really are interested!

_________________
"...a once in a lifetime feeling that returns every week..."

[ This Message was edited by: Jeff H on 2002-08-06 18:00 ]

I felt disco was primarily a gay thing too.

When I was in college, whenever I put on a disco tune or had a disco station on, I always got smirks and comments from the straight guys.

I didn't know too many straights who were into Donna Summer, Gloria Gaynor and Carol Douglas. Most guys I knew were into The Beatles, Bruce Springsteen, Journey, etc.

Who knows maybe they were closet disco freaks. Maybe they were even gay.

**keefelc** · August 6th, 2002, 05:38 PM

Hmmmm... interesting topic. My only comment is that I feel trapped in San Francisco because of the open minded attitudes of most of our citizens (note I said most, not all). The change is VERY noticeable even when just leaving the City and going across the Bay. There are very few other metropolitan cities that I feel I don't have to be "on my guard." So, if Gay Pride Parades serve to let John Q. Public know that we're in all walks of life, like everyone else, I'm all for them!

**Nano** · August 6th, 2002, 06:26 PM

On 2002-08-06 18:31, nrgbeat wrote:
I felt disco was primarily a gay thing too.

When I was in college, whenever I put on a disco tune or had a disco station on, I always got smirks and comments from the straight guys.

I didn't know too many straights who were into Donna Summer, Gloria Gaynor and Carol Douglas. Most guys I knew were into The Beatles, Bruce Springsteen, Journey, etc.

I suffered some of that too in my time, and yes there was some kind of connection in these guys' minds, but I think it was more in the vein "guys enjoying to dance must be a bit gay", like we also suppose all ballet dancers are gay, etc.
I remember in the mid-Eighties, when Prince's rock records were all the rage, these guys caught up very late with them because they kinda thought Prince was gay too, that thought pull them back somehow (these same guys would enjoy, at the same time, David Bowie's records).
I think in the disco era, at least in my country, the division was more "commercial vs. progressive", being commercial all pop music with no artistic pretensions, and much of that was of course danceable. "Progressive" was the music to not dance to but listen, like Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes, jazz-rock, Dylan, etc. etc. So if you were a "groovy" guy, you buyed all these records and discarded disco music as "too simple-minded" (ditto for funk, tecno and black music in general). Kraftwerk was probably the turning point on that kind of beliefs.
Anyway, you could see the "groovy" guys with their Herman Hesse books trying to dance to catch some chick in the disco from time to time.

**Blaxman** · August 7th, 2002, 05:28 AM

On 2002-08-06 19:26, Nano wrote:

I think in the disco era, at least in my country, the division was more "commercial vs. progressive", being commercial all pop music with no artistic pretensions, and much of that was of course danceable. "Progressive" was the music to not dance to but listen, like Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes, jazz-rock, Dylan, etc. etc. So if you were a "groovy" guy, you buyed all these records and discarded disco music as "too simple-minded" (ditto for funk, tecno and black music in general). Kraftwerk was probably the turning point on that kind of beliefs.

Despite Brazil to be quite different from Argentina, the division at that time was the basically, "Commercial X Rock (progressive or metal)" not "Gay x Straight" music.

Of course some people used to say - "this is gay music!" - Then, I used reply to them: "It could be...... just like Lou Reed, David Bowie, Fred Mercury......"

Peace

**jazz_pilgrim** · August 7th, 2002, 06:03 AM

On 2002-07-21 16:21, markydefad wrote:

I would tend to agree that the more sensational folks get their pictures in the papers. I mean, they give better headlines, i.e. sell more papers. The same applies to straights. Is the Star gonna print a photo of Anna Nicole Smith and her ta-tas falling out of her dress or Meryl Streep taking her children to a museum? Anna Nicole sells more papers--so do tattooed Dykes on Bikes.

Hey, they are all a part of the "community"--so I can't deny them their coverage too. But the gay dentist and his life-partner who vote regularly in elections, pay their taxes, keep their lawns immaculate, participate in all neighborhood functions, and attend church every Sunday morning are part of the "community" also. Their photos are ususally missing from the newspaper's coverage.

Changing the subject a bit, I've been thinking about whether the strong "gay influence" at this site makes some people feel a tad uncomfortable here. It's like Jeff described in his earlier post. All of a sudden the world they've known has been turned upside down and they feel like the minority. They don't speak "Gay"!!!! (Remember, someone made that exact comment). Hey, I don't speak Spanish. Do I feel left out when someone speaks it to a fellow, Spanish-speaking member? Maybe, but not really. I just figure it's a bonding process between those of you who speak that language. The "Gay Speak" is not meant to exclude folks who aren't gay; we're just bonding. I am guilty of this, BUT I figure those who don't get it will just go on to another topic or ask me what the hell I'm talking about.

Obviously, we all gravitate to certain people more than others--just as in life. Those people who amuse us or intrigue us or whatever, get more of our attention. It doesn't mean we don't read or care what others post. I like it when everyone is participating and expressing their views--NOT just my "favorites".

All gay men and women are asking for from society is "a place at the table". We get up and go to work, pay taxes, vote in our elections, try to be good citizens. But there are laws that prohibit us from fully sharing the benefits that straight people take for granted. All we want is some equity on that playing field. As an example, I would cite the recent brouhaha regarding domestic partners of gays killed in the World Trade Center tragedy being totally excluded from any benefits that straights are entitled to. Things like this continue to incense us.

I don't think I answered your question, Paul. BUT those were some things that were on my mind.

What an excellent piece of writing, Marky!
Full of real sensitivity, maturity and passion!

If only all the debates on this subject were conducted in such a mature way! I have learned a hell of a lot from it!

Your post has really helped somebody like me to understand how the gay section of the community feel!

Every human being on this planet has got a basic right to be proud of who they are!

In terms of Jeff H's surprise about straight people getting into disco, in England we approached disco from a different angle - via a love of soul music. Here in the south of England, a soul music scene (the Soul Mafia) developed during the Seventies, whereby we were heavily into American imported soul, funk and jazz and naturally disco music was a part of the scene. The scene was dominated by white suburban teenagers, relatively well-off.... I have been hooked ever since.

That is why I probably have tended to miss certain trax like that Olivia Newton John one that came up in a recent thread.

That probably wouldn't have been "cool" in our scene ... I would have probably been dancing to Maze or Kleeer - two Soul Mafia icons...

Finally, I raise my glass to many interesting, cool and level-headed debates on music and everything else in the future!! :grin: :grin:

_________________
It's got to be about the music !!

[ This Message was edited by: jazz_pilgrim on 2002-08-07 08:33 ]

**markydefad** · August 7th, 2002, 04:42 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Jazz Pilgrim. I appreciate it.

**jazz_pilgrim** · August 8th, 2002, 12:20 AM

On 2002-08-07 17:42, markydefad wrote:
Thanks for the kind words, Jazz Pilgrim. I appreciate it.

You're welcome!! :grin:

**Rab** · August 10th, 2002, 11:25 AM

For those straight boys that have felt slighted in the past because of their fondness of disco music, that only goes to prove that heteros have always had something to gain by helping to eradicate homophobia. Straight boys have always been made to feel insecure about thier masculinity and sexuality by society as a result of homophobia. It is no secret that if any straight boy was into disco, in many cases he was a closeted listener. Without gays the music would not have flourished as it did, and many of the men behind those female disco divas that became famous were gay themselves.

It is interesting to hear the styles stereotyped by gays being attacked, because so many styles have been ripped off from us. Today, tatoos are very popular (not that I like them) but back in the 80's it was more common for gays to get tatoos than straights. Of course, earings are the best example, while straight boys were attacking gay boys for having earings, they were secretly admiring them. It was amusing to hear the rationale created by straight boys who got their ears pierced, it usually went something like this, "Well, gay guys wear their earings in thier "right" ear, so it's OK to wear it in your left"....we had to laugh! We never created that "code"; it was concockted by straight boys.

Of course, back in the late 80's and early 90's if you wore a "high'n tight" haircut or a "crewcut" you were considered quite out of style as well(unless you were in the marines), but gay boys wore the style because they liked it, and if you ever wondered into an exclusive gay male environment back about 10 to 15 years ago that would have provided all the evidence you would need. It only took a few years during the early-mid-90's for this hairstyle to take off....and take off it did! While straight boys may have a hard time with this, short hair and shaved heads are popular primarily because of gays.

As far as Nrgbeat agreeing that straight boys and gay boys are not a good mix, this only holds true when straight boys are insecure and homophobic. Actually, gay boys and straight boys can mix extremely well. My experience has been that many straight boys feel more comfortable with gay guys because they can let their guard down and be themselves. There are actually a couple of gay groups that have considered changing their names because so many straight guys join. Many of course feel more comfortable with the "bisexual" label even though, they might admit to preferring male company. Straight boys often have a very good time at gay clubs as well.

And as far as Markydefad's comment about Bernie being "STRAIGHT". With all due respect to Mr. Lopez, unless you know him personally you can't make that kind of conclusive remark. Unless, you actually see who someone is sleeping with you can't be sure. In a perfect world it shouldn't matter if someone assumes someone is gay, but in the world we live in, being gay is like being a Jew in Germany during the 1930's, today the majority of gay people are still at least partially closeted. To assume that all the members of this site who happen to be gay are out of the closet is ridiculous.

**nrgbeat** · August 10th, 2002, 12:09 PM

Interesting commentary.

I never knew that tattoos were originally more common in the gay community than the straight. I usually associated tattoos with bikers, metalheads and sailors and personally can't stand them.