Attacks on Afghanistan

[paul]

Look Fellow. As far as the syphillis issue is concerned, I care about it not just from a group point of view (I'm African-American) but from a historical perspective as well. The fact that you don't care is in a way indicative of your lack some critical thinking and reasoning when looking at issues that may establish historical precedents. I sense your mind has been shaped to behave like a soldier and molded when you were young and enlisted. You therefore may have a difficult time questioning what you've been spoon fed.

Ah...yes. I have travelled outside the US, indeed I was born in Jamaica though I grew up here from the age of 8. There are nice countries in the world where I could live and there are crappy places that suck. In fact there are states in this country where I find this to be true. So what. This sort of over the top patriotism is not my bag. Sorry, I dare say the emperor has no clothes. I therefore don't swallow the, either I'm with Bush and the republican party or I'm with the terrorist argument. This is simple minded in my view.

What you and many are arguing is treating the symptoms, in this case how do we respond to the violent acts of 9-11. That's not necessarily bad. However, what I and I suspect Lean are positing goes deeper as to a cause that brought out those actions. How did we get to this state and how can we minimize the possibility that we face this in the future. You speak like a good soldier. How do we kick ass now and break things. I like to believe some us take a broader view because guess what, the guys on the other side have the same view as you. Last time I checked, these guys haven't exactly rolled over yet with each new wave of larger strikes and daisy cutters.

If you can handle it, most of the secretly recorded LBJ tapes have been released. Check it out. In it he admits to knowing that the war in Vietnam was unwinable because going all out might have meant a nuclear exchange with Russia and/or China. Pulling out would have been political suicide for him because the republicans would have painted him as soft on communism. Things are not always as it seems.

Until you are willimg to see where we are right and where we are wrong, we will never get past this knee jerk neanderthal mindset that says we are the saints and they are the demons.

[fellow]

Paul,



I guess what set me off about your post was that you were under the impression that the attacks were allowed to happen, and it served

as a pretext to go after the Taliban for oil.

Hmm, this did not sound too intelligent to me.

[paul]

Well, I did give the impression that oil may be a reason why the military focus is on Afghanistan and it's Taliban regime as opposed to Bin Laden because I feel it's a distinct possibility. The fact that the hijackers murdered thousands and that that served as a pretext was something I also implied. I could be way off base but like I said, it's not unprecedented. Remember when daddy Bush floated out all sorts of dubious reasons why we should go to war against Iraq. Falsehoods like protecting democracy in Kuwait, stopping the rapes being done by Iraqis on Kuwaiti women, etc.

Don't get me wrong, the US is a marvelous country even with it's many shortcomings. I just believe that the constitution which serves as a framework for this nation should be adhered to. Not just some meaningless abstract thing that can be picked apart to serve some political objective.

[fellow]

Paul,

I guess we got off on the wrong foot.Too much emotion and testosterone.

The best thing I like about this country is that we can agree to disagree. I am not mad at anybody.... how could I be I'm currently at work listening to Santa Esmeralda:}

You have me pegged correctly. I was a good soldier and I do have the flag waving high. I do wave my fist and say "with US or the terrorist". I have to believe that we are doing the correct thing. Not only for me but for my kids as well- corny as it may seem... for their future. I choose to choose no other side of this conflict.

We all know that the US has its dark side, which country does not?

Paul, do you think that the US is currently "Too politcally correct" on world affairs? Or do you think that it is just a farce?

What if they hit us again and several thousand more innocent die. What are we? you and I to do? We can continue to hash out all the injustices that have occured in the US for days on end.But now, the conflict at hand is what we must turn our full attention on.Is the US using this tragedy for oil or some other diabolical plan? I know not. I choose to think not-

Thank you for your replies.

[paul]

On 2001-11-09 01:38, fellow wrote:

Paul,

I guess we got off on the wrong foot.Too much emotion and testosterone.

The best thing I like about this country is that we can agree to disagree. I am not mad at anybody.... how could I be I'm currently at work listening to Santa Esmeralda:}

You have me pegged correctly. I was a good soldier and I do have the flag waving high. I do wave my fist and say "with US or the terrorist". I have to believe that we are doing the correct thing. Not only for me but for my kids as well- corny as it may seem... for their future. I choose to choose no other side of this conflict.

We all know that the US has its dark side, which country does not?

Paul, do you think that the US is currently "Too politcally correct" on world affairs? Or do you think that it is just a farce?

What if they hit us again and several thousand more innocent die. What are we? you and I to do? We can continue to hash out all the injustices that have occured in the US for days on end.But now, the conflict at hand is what we must turn our full attention on.Is the US using this tragedy for oil or some other diabolical plan? I know not. I choose to think not-

Thank you for your replies.

You're right fellow. We did get off to the wrong foot. First I apologize for not greeting you, greetings. I don't recall ever seeing you post here.

When it comes to sex, politics and food, I get pretty passionate.

I don't know if this is a farce and I'm more concerned the wholesale war in Afghanistan will lead to an Israeli future. We hit them with overwhelming power, next week some guy walks into a mall with dynamite taped to his body and wipes out a few hundred innocent people. I just gotta believe the American people need all the facts and force our elected leaders to make ethical decisions. I still have this perhaps naive view that America is for the people and by the people.

I don't profess to know the answers but I gotta believe if we come to a reasonable and fair decision for all sides then we can minimize the risk of future terrorism.

[Fantomas]

Bomb the hell out of those camel jockeys. We have a right to defend our country and our policies. Leanmean, you sound to me like one of those apologetic "pacifists". Those Moslems would take someone like you and impale you in the blink of an eye.

[Disco77]

Europe, you have a lot to answer for.

America, you have a lot to answer for.

But in the end, we have all been duped.

Let the music play.

[Leanmean]

On 2001-11-14 07:19, Fantomas wrote:

Bomb the hell out of those camel jockeys. We have a right to defend our country and our policies. Leanmean, you sound to me like one of those apologetic "pacifists". Those Moslems would take someone like you and impale you in the blink of an eye.

I'm not sure how you would get the impression I am a pacifist although as a Christian Buddhist, I would have to say that THAT is what Jesus (the Christ) AND Sidartha Gautauma (the Buddha) taught! If I was a GOOD Christian Buddhist, I WOULD be a pacifist, but unfortunately, I am not ready to go to the wall for my spiritual beliefs. (Which pains me no end!) If I was a good Christian Buddhist -- YOU would be hounding me and accusing me for following my beliefs!



Now, rant finished, in all my posts on this topic I have said that bin Laden and his accomplices should be punished. Is that pacifist?



Do you call me a pacifist because I asked a question and wondered about something intriguing? Am I a pacifist because I was curious about what our government is really up to? If you would pull your head out of the sand, you might be able to actually READ what I really said in my previous posts, no disrespect intended Fantomas.

[Leanmean]

One other thing to note on this subject is that "current events" quickly become old news. When I first posted this topic, it was in October and it was something that had been on my mind since we started bombing.



As we can see in today's current events, the bombing has at least routed out the Taliban. My original point, in addition to wondering if the bombing was "symbolic," was that I did not think bombing was the way to find and punish Bin Laden. I thought we should have more high tech, covert intelligence, which of course, if it's covert, we will never know about. Bombing the shit out of the dirt and poverty stricken towns just seemed like a weird way to find one man!



Who knows how this thing will play out? Maybe we'll get lucky and a bomb will kill Bin Laden, but I doubt it.

[Fantomas]

I respect your beleifs, although, I do question the mentality of today. I'm a Christian and that's all I'm. Can you be a Christian and a Bhuddist at the same time?

Please explain to me.

Thanks.

[fellow]

I will be flying my family back East (NJ) for Thanksgiving and right now I am praying to every God I know of.



Lean, I believe that the bombings were more than just for bin ladin. Recently, they found more evidence of nukes, poisons, etc- Casting their evil attention on us.Once again we must protect ourselves and the US must use what ever means possible, to stop another attack that may be in the works.Taliban and Al Queda are one. They must be destroyed.



Happy Holidays- to all religious sects

[Leanmean]

On 2001-11-15 16:24, Fantomas wrote:

"Can you be a Christian and a Bhuddist at the same time? Please explain to me. Thanks."

Wow! I'm trying to figure out how to explain it without being longwinded. There may be no way around it so for the rest of you who could not care less, please forgive me.



My basic beliefs from childhood are Christian. My church is called Unity (not to be confused with Unitarian). We believe in the practical teachings of Jesus, goodness

and abundance in all areas of life. We believe there is only one God, the good, omnipotent, omniscient protector -- father, mother God. We do not believe in the devil. We do however, realize that there is evil in the world. God gave us free will and we can either choose to follow God's will or our own ego-will. If we choose the latter, chaos usually reins.



Part of being a Christian is to practice meditation. Prayer is where you talk to God. Meditation is where you listen.



Sidartha Gatauma, or the Buddha, is not a god. Buddha means enlightened one, just as the Christ means annointed one. And as in Christianity there are many different denominations, so, too, are there are many different types of Buddhism. I study and practice Vipassana or Insight Meditation. It is a pratical way to end suffering which the Buddha said was caused by clinging (to old thoughts -- repetitive or in the future or in the past) and craving (the emotional urgency with which we react to situations). Once I learn to back away from clinging and craving, I am more open to receive the message from God. The teachings are from the Eightfold Noble Path.



As Vipassana students in America, we tend to practice meditation and living life the way the Buddha taught originally. In the East, they have gotten more ritualized and may have altars with a figure of the Buddha. It may appear as if they are worshipping Buddha when they prostrate themselves before the statue, but in many cases, they are simply honoring the image of a supreme enlightened one, much as Catholics revere the Virgin Mary and others kiss the cross.



The Buddha himself did not want people to have rituals or worship him. Just as Jesus said in speaking of the miracles he performed, "These works and more shall you do," the Buddha let the people know that they, too, could become enlightened.



I believe in Jesus and I look for the Christ in everyone. I also look for the Buddha nature in everyone. They are one and the same. You know, there are some people who believe that the years Christ was gone from his home, before he returned as an adult, that he was studying Buddhism. Certainly, they are parallel. But Jesus attributes all to one Source -- God, the Father. Buddha did not attribute his enlightenment to anything other than his own efforts.



There are books available that show the parallels between what Jesus and Buddha taught if you are interested.



Thanks for asking.

[Bernie]

Lean,



Since you mentioned Sidartha., read the book of the same name by Hermann Hesse. It may be out of print, but well worth the effort. It's a wonderful tale about one man's journey through life. While you are at it, read all of Hesse's books

[Dancinfool]

Leanman, you might have a point about the bombing of Afghanistan.

Maybe Bush II wants to keep that on the front page and on tv instead of ENRON.

What you think?

[Fantomas]

You sound like a "Pacifist" to me.

Personally I don't like wars. But if you bomb me and try to kill me, I'll do my best to retaliate and I'll try to rip your f**** heart out. Innocent civilians is one of the costs of war. When innocent civilians allowed such deviant elements to rule and live amongst them, they better duck or pay the price.