The gay pride debate...

[Outsider]

Straight boys and disco go together about as well as ketchup and ice cream...

I'm a straight boy and I love disco. I never thought of disco as being strictly a gay thing. That's just a stereotype. Likewise, I'm sure that there are gays who love metal.

One thing about disco is that it attracts people of all races, genders, and sexual orientations, and this message board is proof of that.

[nrgbeat]

On 2002-08-06 17:59, Jeff H wrote:
What you guys are saying is true, of course, but in Rab's defense, until I became a regular at this site I believed disco was pretty much a gay thing too.

Most of the places I had danced were gay clubs, most of the DJs and other fans I knew were also gay. All the straight people I knew had very negative opinions about disco--if they thought about it at all. ("Where do you hear this kind of music?" was a typical comment--and it wasn't meant as a compliment.)

So I was surprised when I first started visiting this site to find that the posters weren't all gay guys--that there straight guys, and gay and straight women too. You learn something new every day.

But gay or straight, male or female, it's just nice to find a group of people who appreciate the same music I do, and when they say "Where did you hear THAT?" really are interested!

_________________
"...a once in a lifetime feeling that returns every week..."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jeff H on 2002-08-06 18:00 ]</font>

I felt disco was primarily a gay thing too.

When I was in college, whenever I put on a disco tune or had a disco station on, I always got smirks and comments from the straight guys.

I didn't know too many straights who were into Donna Summer, Gloria Gaynor and Carol Douglas. Most guys I knew were into The Beatles, Bruce Springsteen, Journey, etc.

Who knows maybe they were closet disco freaks. Maybe they were even gay.

[keefelc]

Hmmmm... interesting topic. My only comment is that I feel trapped in San Francisco because of the open minded attitudes of most of our citizens (note I said most, not all). The change is VERY noticeable even when just leaving the City and going across the Bay. There are very few other metropolitan cities that I feel I don't have to be "on my guard." So, if Gay Pride Parades serve to let John Q. Public know that we're in all walks of life, like everyone else, I'm all for them!

[Nano]

On 2002-08-06 18:31, nrgbeat wrote:
I felt disco was primarily a gay thing too.

When I was in college, whenever I put on a disco tune or had a disco station on, I always got smirks and comments from the straight guys.

I didn't know too many straights who were into Donna Summer, Gloria Gaynor and Carol Douglas. Most guys I knew were into The Beatles, Bruce Springsteen, Journey, etc.

I suffered some of that too in my time, and yes there was some kind of connection in these guys' minds, but I think it was more in the vein "guys enjoying to dance must be a bit gay", like we also suppose all ballet dancers are gay, etc.
I remember in the mid-Eighties, when Prince's rock records were all the rage, these guys caught up very late with them because they kinda thought Prince was gay too, that thought pull them back somehow (these same guys would enjoy, at the same time, David Bowie's records).
I think in the disco era, at least in my country, the division was more "commercial vs. progressive", being commercial all pop music with no artistic pretensions, and much of that was of course danceable. "Progressive" was the music to not dance to but listen, like Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes, jazz-rock, Dylan, etc. etc. So if you were a "groovy" guy, you buyed all these records and discarded disco music as "too simple-minded" (ditto for funk, tecno and black music in general). Kraftwerk was probably the turning point on that kind of beliefs.
Anyway, you could see the "groovy" guys with their Herman Hesse books trying to dance to catch some chick in the disco from time to time.

[Blaxman]

On 2002-08-06 19:26, Nano wrote:

I think in the disco era, at least in my country, the division was more "commercial vs. progressive", being commercial all pop music with no artistic pretensions, and much of that was of course danceable. "Progressive" was the music to not dance to but listen, like Pink Floyd, Genesis, Yes, jazz-rock, Dylan, etc. etc. So if you were a "groovy" guy, you buyed all these records and discarded disco music as "too simple-minded" (ditto for funk, tecno and black music in general). Kraftwerk was probably the turning point on that kind of beliefs.

Despite Brazil to be quite different from Argentina, the division at that time was the basically, "Commercial X Rock (progressive or metal)" not "Gay x Straight" music.

Of course some people used to say - "this is gay music!" - Then, I used reply to them: "It could be...... just like Lou Reed, David Bowie, Fred Mercury......"

Peace

[jazz_pilgrim]

On 2002-07-21 16:21, markydefad wrote:

I would tend to agree that the more sensational folks get their pictures in the papers. I mean, they give better headlines, i.e. sell more papers. The same applies to straights. Is the Star gonna print a photo of Anna Nicole Smith and her ta-tas falling out of her dress or Meryl Streep taking her children to a museum? Anna Nicole sells more papers--so do tattooed Dykes on Bikes.

Hey, they are all a part of the "community"--so I can't deny them their coverage too. But the gay dentist and his life-partner who vote regularly in elections, pay their taxes, keep their lawns immaculate, participate in all neighborhood functions, and attend church every Sunday morning are part of the "community" also. Their photos are ususally missing from the newspaper's coverage.

Changing the subject a bit, I've been thinking about whether the strong "gay influence" at this site makes some people feel a tad uncomfortable here. It's like Jeff described in his earlier post. All of a sudden the world they've known has been turned upside down and they feel like the minority. They don't speak "Gay"!!!! (Remember, someone made that exact comment). Hey, I don't speak Spanish. Do I feel left out when someone speaks it to a fellow, Spanish-speaking member? Maybe, but not really. I just figure it's a bonding process between those of you who speak that language. The "Gay Speak" is not meant to exclude folks who aren't gay; we're just bonding. I am guilty of this, BUT I figure those who don't get it will just go on to another topic or ask me what the hell I'm talking about.

Obviously, we all gravitate to certain people more than others--just as in life. Those people who amuse us or intrigue us or whatever, get more of our attention. It doesn't mean we don't read or care what others post. I like it when everyone is participating and expressing their views--NOT just my "favorites".

All gay men and women are asking for from society is "a place at the table". We get up and go to work, pay taxes, vote in our elections, try to be good citizens. But there are laws that prohibit us from fully sharing the benefits that straight people take for granted. All we want is some equity on that playing field. As an example, I would cite the recent brouhaha regarding domestic partners of gays killed in the World Trade Center tragedy being totally excluded from any benefits that straights are entitled to. Things like this continue to incense us.

I don't think I answered your question, Paul. BUT those were some things that were on my mind.

What an excellent piece of writing, Marky!
Full of real sensitivity, maturity and passion! If only all the debates on this subject were conducted in such a mature way! I have learned a hell of a lot from it!

Your post has really helped somebody like me to understand how the gay section of the community feel!

Every human being on this planet has got a basic right to be proud of who they are!

In terms of Jeff H's surprise about straight people getting into disco, in England we approached disco from a different angle - via a love of soul music. Here in the south of England, a soul music scene (the Soul Mafia) developed during the Seventies, whereby we were heavily into American imported soul, funk and jazz and naturally disco music was a part of the scene. The scene was dominated by white suburban teenagers, relatively well-off.... I have been hooked ever since.

That is why I probably have tended to miss certain trax like that Olivia Newton John one that came up in a recent thread. That probably wouldn't have been "cool" in our scene ... I would have probably been dancing to Maze or Kleeer - two Soul Mafia icons...

Finally, I raise my glass to many interesting, cool and level-headed debates on music and everything else in the future!! :grin: :grin:




_________________
It's got to be about the music !!



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jazz_pilgrim on 2002-08-07 08:33 ]</font>

[markydefad]

Thanks for the kind words, Jazz Pilgrim. I appreciate it.

[jazz_pilgrim]

On 2002-08-07 17:42, markydefad wrote:
Thanks for the kind words, Jazz Pilgrim. I appreciate it.

You're welcome!! :grin:

[Rab]

For those straight boys that have felt slighted in the past because of their fondness of disco music, that only goes to prove that heteros have always had something to gain by helping to eradicate homophobia. Straight boys have always been made to feel insecure about thier masculinity and sexuality by society as a result of homophobia. It is no secret that if any straight boy was into disco, in many cases he was a closeted listener. Without gays the music would not have flourished as it did, and many of the men behind those female disco divas that became famous were gay themselves.

It is interesting to hear the styles stereotyped by gays being attacked, because so many styles have been ripped off from us. Today, tatoos are very popular (not that I like them) but back in the 80's it was more common for gays to get tatoos than straights. Of course, earings are the best example, while straight boys were attacking gay boys for having earings, they were secretly admiring them. It was amusing to hear the rationale created by straight boys who got their ears pierced, it usually went something like this, "Well, gay guys wear their earings in thier "right" ear, so it's OK to wear it in your left"....we had to laugh! We never created that "code"; it was concockted by straight boys.

Of course, back in the late 80's and early 90's if you wore a "high'n tight" haircut or a "crewcut" you were considered quite out of style as well(unless you were in the marines), but gay boys wore the style because they liked it, and if you ever wondered into an exclusive gay male environment back about 10 to 15 years ago that would have provided all the evidence you would need. It only took a few years during the early-mid-90's for this hairstyle to take off....and take off it did! While straight boys may have a hard time with this, short hair and shaved heads are popular primarily because of gays.

As far as Nrgbeat agreeing that straight boys and gay boys are not a good mix, this only holds true when straight boys are insecure and homophobic. Actually, gay boys and straight boys can mix extremely well. My experience has been that many straight boys feel more comfortable with gay guys because they can let their guard down and be themselves. There are actually a couple of gay groups that have considered changing their names because so many straight guys join. Many of course feel more comfortable with the "bisexual" label even though, they might admit to preferring male company. Straight boys often have a very good time at gay clubs as well.

And as far as Markydefad's comment about Bernie being "STRAIGHT". With all due respect to Mr. Lopez, unless you know him personally you can't make that kind of conclusive remark. Unless, you actually see who someone is sleeping with you can't be sure. In a perfect world it shouldn't matter if someone assumes someone is gay, but in the world we live in, being gay is like being a Jew in Germany during the 1930's, today the majority of gay people are still at least partially closeted. To assume that all the members of this site who happen to be gay are out of the closet is ridiculous.

[nrgbeat]

Interesting commentary.

I never knew that tattoos were originally more common in the gay community than the straight. I usually associated tattoos with bikers, metalheads and sailors and personally can't stand them.

[Bernie]

On 2002-08-10 12:25, Rab wrote:

And as far as Markydefad's comment about Bernie being "STRAIGHT". With all due respect to Mr. Lopez, unless you know him personally you can't make that kind of conclusive remark.

I'm hetero and proud of it-I just don't make a big stink about it. I'm one of those "STRAIGHT" guys who gets along with everyone!

In fact I'm so tolerant of others that a few months back the author of "Hot Stuff-A Brief History of Disco" invited my girlfriend and I to a gay club here in DC for a retro Disco night and we actually had a good time. It was a little freaky at first, but it was fun.

[DanceMan]

Bernie....with all due respect....please refrain from using the word TOLERANT in regard to people of any race, religion, gender or sexual orientation....I don't want anyone to tolerate me...either like me for who I am or don't....I hear that word in regard to gay people so much. it is very insulting and reaks of condescension. I am sure that while that was not your intention, it is almost like saying that "some of my best friends are...."

[guille]

Getting back to gay parades this last one in San Francisco stirred up some controversy. It seems that they are leaving the political activism for greed and hunger for money. The organizers are more worried with getting the best bids from sponsors and advertising. There are still many things to fight for!!!
Enough said, I need to take this heat off me at the Watergarden... if you know what I mean.
Have a Disco Life.

[nrgbeat]

On 2002-08-10 21:37, DanceMan wrote:
Bernie....with all due respect....please refrain from using the word TOLERANT in regard to people of any race, religion, gender or sexual orientation....I don't want anyone to tolerate me...either like me for who I am or don't....I hear that word in regard to gay people so much. it is very insulting and reaks of condescension. I am sure that while that was not your intention, it is almost like saying that "some of my best friends are...."

I don't see a problem with the word tolerate.

For example if I work with a person who is always pushing their religious beliefs, I may not like that person, but I tolerate them.

[Jeff H]

Hey, guille--I hear ya! Have a blast... or two or three!

(You do, of course, open the debate about just how "mainstream" gays should become, but that's a topic for another thread, maybe not one to be discussed at this site.)

And DanceMan, I feel confident in saying that Bernie meant nothing patronizing by using the word "tolerant." Bernie is cool, and has demonstrated that many times. Relax!