Does Islam Need a Luther or a Pope?

[paul]

Originally Posted by KoolChris

Just one thing: if anteriority has any importance, Jews (the Hebrews) were in Israel way before Islam ever existed. They were chased, used as slaves by the Egyptians (who were at the time neither Arabs nor Muslims), and slowly chased around until they ended in Europe. The Arabs, when they invaded North Africa, forced Islam upon the local populations. These locals were forced to convert, which is why most of North Africa and the Middle East are Muslim nowadays. The Maurs invaded and occupied Spain for several centuries, until the Spanish Inquisition, when Muslims and Jews were thrown out to Africa. The Jews that settled there are the Sephardic Jews, that were spoliated and strongly encouraged to leave when the North-African countries, now mostly Arabic, gained independance.

Basically, Zionism was, before the creation of the state of Israel (XIX century), the will of diaspora Jews in Eastern Europe to re-establish themselves in a Holy Land that not only had once belonged to them, but that also had strong relevance to their faith. Few of the Palestinians living there had any Link whatsoever with those cohabitating centuries earlier with the Hebrews.

Hi KC. A few points you mentioned I'd like to discuss. As of yet, there is no archealogical evidence that supports the biblical contention that the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt.
http://touregypt.net/featurestories/egyptexodus.htm

Therefore some scholars have concluded for example that the pyramids were built by paid artisans.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid.../builders.html

As I've mentioned before, even if one were to accept what the Bible claims, there were already people inhabiting the "Promised Land."

I do agree that the Muslims in that part of the world were particularly violent in their mission to proselytize.
As for the Arab inhabitants of Palestine and their link to the region, that would appear to a difference of opinion. However, at the moment when the Zionist in the early 20th century made their push for Israel in Palestine, the majority population was Arab Palestinian.
As a side note, there was a proposal early on to establish Israel in East Africa.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...sm/Uganda.html

[paul]

Originally Posted by DiscoMan

To the Victor goes the spoils. Nuremburg was payback. And so were the Japanese trials in the Pacific.

My point with Nuremberg was it's lesson pertaining to our responsibility as individuals. We have a higher calling that goes beyond orders, nationalism, and/or patriotism when engaged with our fellow human beings. The defense used by the Nazi soldiers at the time that they were merely following orders was rightly deemed unsatisfactory.

[KoolChris]

Originally Posted by paul

Hi KC. A few points you mentioned I'd like to discuss. As of yet, there is no archealogical evidence that supports the biblical contention that the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt.
http://touregypt.net/featurestories/egyptexodus.htm

Therefore some scholars have concluded for example that the pyramids were built by paid artisans.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/pyramid.../builders.html

Obviously, the scholars specialized in Egyptology themselves are unsure whether the builders were local, a mix of local/imported; volunteers, coerced locals, downright slaves... I am certainly in no legitimate place to argue with them... We DO know, though, that Hebrews were present at the time, and preparing to flee. Whether they were actual co-builders, slaves, both, or none at all isn't quite relevant to this matter.

As for the Arab inhabitants of Palestine and their link to the region, that would appear to a difference of opinion. However, at the moment when the Zionist in the early 20th century made their push for Israel in Palestine, the majority population was Arab Palestinian.

Of course, at that time! Most Jews having been away, unwillingly touring the World for quite a few centuries... Once again, the legitimacy of the ownership of the land can be assessed differently whether you consider it from an ancient or more recent viewpoint.

As a side note, there was a proposal early on to establish Israel in East Africa.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...sm/Uganda.html

...which was viewed by none as a perfect alternative to "Eretz Israel", the mother land. It was just one of the lands considered in the search for a home for the Jews. Obviously, it was never fully carried out, as it would only have been an artificial, temporary settlement, not the desired and ultimately necessary return to Zion.

[paul]

Actually KC, I do beleive that the Hebrew claims of enslavement and the exodus story is quite relevent. It lends whatever legitamcy there is to the claim of a homeland in Palestine/Israel. In fact it is the foundation upon what so much was and is built on! As I've said before, even if one were to accept the bible stories, the bible itself states that there were already people in that land.
I have nothing against the Jewish people but the presumption of a just claim to a land already occupied just doesn't work for me. Now if one wants to argue the law of the jungle where brute force dictates ownership, that would at least be more truthful. This nation (the US) certainly used it against the indigenous peoples here.
I'll also add that this so called perfect solution is clearly not that.

[Videoskooter]

Paul, what is your stand on the Holocaust? Just curious.

[paul]

IT NEVER HAPPENNED. Just kidding. I know there are people who share that thought. I'm not one of them.

[DiscoMan]

To digess a bit; I have found it somewhat interesting that we were attacked by m**s**ms right after we saved three m**s**m countries - kuwait, bosnia and albania...