Does Islam Need a Luther or a Pope?

[remicks]

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[paul]

So Johan, did those Palestinians who claimed to have lived in Palestine prior to the creation of Israel just fall from the sky? Are the religious claims from a population that was ~10-30% Jewish in Palestine superior to the rest of the population whose generational ties to that land date back hundreds if not thousands of years? Indeed, even looking at the religious claims, the land was occupied by Canaanites who god said was ok to ignore and take the land from.
Perhaps we are seeing poetic justice because I'm sure Belgium like many parts of Europe is experiencing an influx of immigrants. Just as the mideast should not be solely Muslim Arab, Europe should not be solely European

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2006/7/12/122739.shtml
Here is a link to a rightwing site you would approve of. If you get to the end of the article they even describe Israeli excursions into Lebanon and prisoner exchanges with Hezbollah that date back more than several years ago. This recent escapade by Israel should among other things show that Israel is hardly the poor underdog and never the aggressor. Look, you better believe Israel will ALWAYS be under the gun. What if some group decided to take over Belgium. Would native Belgians just lie down and say have at it? I doubt it. I would expect every Belgian and their offspring would fight this! Why do you have such little regard for the indigenous Arab Palestinians and their supporters in the region?
A great American President once said "the buck stops here." The bush crime family are a far cry from that. Their Goebbels machine in the media are still blaming Bill Clinton more than 5 years since Bill was President! When terrorist bombed the World Trade Center shortly after Bill got in office, Bill went after and captured those responsible. He wasn't running around blaming Daddy bush even though the republicans at the time were busy looking for Bill's semen under their wives dresses.
Johan, the repubs headed by bush run ALL 3 BRANCHES of this government! Under their watch we had 9/11, the Katrina fiasco, massive budget deficits, a return to increased poverty, a disastrous mistake of a war in Iraq, escalating nuclear capabilities in North Korea and Iran, and on and on! As Al Franken says, the repubs set out to show government doesn't work. Once they get in office they prove it!
Johan, the problems with Iran began long before 1979.
Oh, the irony. You stated that "Interference in internal affairs? I don't care! When our safety is in danger, certain "Things" are permitted! Do ya think the guys on the other side are using your logic as well!

[Videoskooter]

Paul, you are mixing things up here to prove your point of view. I never said that Palistinians don't have a right to live there. I only said Jews have also their place in the Middle-East, a fact that is not accepted by many of their neighbours. And even when Israël would give up 75% of its territory, they still will be attacked.

You don't answer the question on the Palistinian corruption either. They are run by crooks which doesn't help them very much is it? A part of the poverty is due to Israëlian occupation but don't make a saint out of the late Arafat coz' he was a terrorist and he was corrupt. He talked the talk but he didn't walk the walk.

You say that they have a right to use my logic. As far as I know we don't do terroristic attacks on innocent people. We don't get bezerk about a few cartoons. We don't burn Mosqs down because of something that has been published in a paper.

BTW, I see that "Madmufti" Ahmadinejad is very close now with your Venezuelan hero Yugo. He even got the Simon Bolivar price today. Didn't you state in a previous reply that the Madmufti was a nutty? So, I expect you don't like this "friendship".:o

And where did I say that Europe should be European only????? I've said that we will not accept religious dominiation from Islamofascists. I never said that Arab people are not welcome here. If they come in peace, that is!

Now don't misquote my words now, Paul. That's a bad leftie habit

Don't get me wrong Paul, I'm on your side: Find 'em and destroy 'em!

[paul]

Paul, you are mixing things up here to prove your point of view. I never said that Palistinians don't have a right to live there. I only said Jews have also their place in the Middle-East, a fact that is not accepted by many of their neighbours. And even when Israël would give up 75% of its territory, they still will be attacked.
Well, Jews and Muslims did live together in the region for a long time. The problem arose when they established the a "Jewish" state, Israel. Palestine at the time had a minority Hebrew population.
I believe Israel will better placed in a less inhabited place here in the states.

You don't answer the question on the Palistinian corruption either. They are run by crooks which doesn't help them very much is it? A part of the poverty is due to Israëlian occupation but don't make a saint out of the late Arafat coz' he was a terrorist and he was corrupt. He talked the talk but he didn't walk the walk.
No disagreement with Palestinian corruption. That is why groups like Hamas and Hezbollah are so popular with Palestinians and other Arabs. These groups aside from being an alternative to corrupts groups like the PLO, offer the people aide that they aren't getting.

You say that they have a right to use my logic. As far as I know we don't do terroristic attacks on innocent people. We don't get bezerk about a few cartoons. We don't burn Mosqs down because of something that has been published in a paper.

Well, the logic I was referencing was the arbritrary undefined use of force you imply. True, Western nations wont use suicide bombers. Laser guided munitions are just as deadly however.
I'm not defending the nuts who destroy statues or go ape because of a cartoon or what a pope said.

BTW, I see that "Madmufti" Ahmadinejad is very close now with your Venezuelan hero Yugo. He even got the Simon Bolivar price today. Didn't you state in a previous reply that the Madmufti was a nutty? So, I expect you don't like this "friendship".:o

Well, I am not surprised or disappointed in Yugo's relationship with Ahmadinejad. Both leaders were/are targeted by bush. I see it as a relationship of circumstances and convenience. It's no worse than bush's relationship with the Saudi Royal family. These people are alledge to have funded/supported many "terrorist."

And where did I say that Europe should be European only????? I've said that we will not accept religious dominiation from Islamofascists. I never said that Arab people are not welcome here. If they come in peace, that is!

Well, this has gotten a little confusing. My point was it should be just as acceptable for Jews to establish a state in the Middle East as it would be if Arabs established a state in Europe, either by birthrate or by force.

Now don't misquote my words now, Paul. That's a bad leftie habit

Yeah I know, but we tend to observe the actions and not rely on the words conservatives use.

Don't get me wrong Paul, I'm on your side: Find 'em and destroy 'em!

How?

[Videoskooter]

You go a little bit easy on the fact that Madmufti, Khamenei and Yugo are close. That's not a good thing and you know it. The Iranian government is the biggest sponsor of terrorism worldwide and should be isolated. Period.

Take notice of the words of Bernie's girlfriend. I think she knows Iran much better than we both do. I repeat, the Iranian government can not be trusted. They can fool the weak and idiotic European leaders but not well-documented people.

The Saudi-Government? Did I ever spoke in favour of them????

A Jewish state in the US :o You gonna abandon Jerusalem, Bethlehem and leave them in the hands of the Arabs??? :o They already announced that they will destroy the temple and replace it by a Mosq.

How we gonna stop 'em? Simply, if those madmen really attack Rome or the Vatican or try to assasinate the Pope, hit 'em hard. Make it clear that if they really are planning such a hideous act, Mecca will be our target. You wanna bet that they gonna back down?

And this is for Discoman:

http://analysis.threatswatch.org/200...g-ahmadinejad/

It (and many other analysis) clearly show that the man is a raving and utterly dangerous lunatic and certainly has, what we non-believers, call a hidden agenda. Or should it be hideous agenda.

Follow the man's personal weblog:

http://www.ahmadinejad.ir/

[paul]

The US is the perfect location for the new state of Israel. Perhaps a tiny portion off coastal Texas. Israel isn't that big. The US is Israel's best ally. Besides, didn't their god command the Israelis not to idol worship. To commit yourself to Bethlehem and Jerusalem is idol worshipping. This is all supposed to be god's stuff if you're a believer so going to the US make sense.

[Videoskooter]

So in other words: the jews don't have a right to live in the Middle-East. They should go in exile to the US where they actually don't have roots at all.

The Middle-East is exclusively reserved for Arabs.

Iran can have his nuclear power because we don't have the right to interfere in their internal affairs.

What's next? Since Belgium is an artificial state too (created by the old European monarchies), maybe you have a new place for us already in mind ????

Maybe we can go to Venezuela???? Belgium is very small and Venezuela is big. Since you are planning to install Chavez as your next US president, then we can be part of the new World :-o :-o :-o

And idol worshipping means statues and images, not buildings or holy places, those are sacred venues and have to be kept sacred venues, be it Catholic, Muslem or Jewish. A slight misinterpretation by your side :-)

Sometimes you really frighten me, my San Diegan buddy

Originally Posted by paul

My point was it should be just as acceptable for Jews to establish a state in the Middle East as it would be if Arabs established a state in Europe, either by birthrate or by force

This is humbug, Arabs don't have a birthright or roots in Europe. This is a very bad comparison. Jewish people do have roots in the Middle-East, you simply can not deny that. (You probably will but....)

[DiscoMan]

Those lousy bastards already have the blood of one of my relatives on their hands... We are engaged in a world wide jihad and I'd give the enemy no quarter.

Oh... and Paul; wasn't Palestine once called "Judea"?

[DiscoMan]

"And this is for Discoman"

Thank you Video...

If one is a student of world history it is easy to understand today's events.
This is the latest jihad out of a history full of them.

We need a Prince Jan Sobieski once again.

[paul]

So in other words: the jews don't have a right to live in the Middle-East. They should go in exile to the US where they actually don't have roots at all.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I suggest presents a peaceful solution. An entirely new state can be carved out of Texas down by the gulf of Texas. This is no different from how the current state of Israel came into existence. Much of Texas, which is a huge state is sparsely populated outside the metro areas. The Arabs can assist in relocation. This could also be combined with the eventual end of all that foreign aid that goes to Israel and Egypt since Israel is no longer in the region. The Jewish people would have a coastal nation with it's number one ally and would be able to have minimal concerns about confrontations with enemies. A jewish family would not have to be as concerned about the future of their offspring. The Palestinians could have their homeland, the US would not be as bogged down in it's foreign policy in that part of the world due to Israeli considerations, and as I said this nation at some point could end the billions on foreign aid to Israel and Egypt.
Is this not better than the existing policy.

The Middle-East is exclusively reserved for Arabs.
Ya gotta get past the bitterness. If you can't see beyond them "Arabs getting something" then you really aren't into a solution!

Iran can have his nuclear power because we don't have the right to interfere in their internal affairs. I know it's hard for some of you but that nuclear weapons thing eventually is something every one will have access to, not just Europeans or North Americans. It will happen even faster if Bush style foreign policy dominates.

What's next? Since Belgium is an artificial state too (created by the old European monarchies), maybe you have a new place for us already in mind ????
Johan, you sound so bitter here. Remember it was your buddies in DC that describe you folks as old Europe. Why would having a peaceful solution threaten your way of life?

Maybe we can go to Venezuela???? Belgium is very small and Venezuela is big. Since you are planning to install Chavez as your next US president, then we can be part of the new World :-o :-o :-o

Relax pal. Time to take a breather :grin:

And idol worshipping means statues and images, not buildings or holy places, those are sacred venues and have to be kept sacred venues, be it Catholic, Muslem or Jewish. A slight misinterpretation by your side :-)

Well, I don't see this as a misinterpretation. IMHO, god was in essence telling his believers not to place anything above him. By placing so much value in a location over the lives of fellow human beings you are violating god's commandments. That's just my understanding however. You beleivers can work that out with god when your time comes!

Sometimes you really frighten me, my San Diegan buddy

I know it's hard but give peace a chance!

This is humbug, Arabs don't have a birthright or roots in Europe. This is a very bad comparison. Jewish people do have roots in the Middle-East, you simply can not deny that. (You probably will but....)
Didn't the Moors dominate parts of Europe several centuries ago. Surely that should be enough time to be considered birthright!
I'm not saying Jews don't have a place in the mideast. But displacing the majority Muslim population and establishing a Jewish state is simply wrong.

[paul]

Originally Posted by DiscoMan

Oh... and Paul; wasn't Palestine once called "Judea"?

Perhaps? And your point?

[Videoskooter]

Paul, BTW, I re-read your posts. How come you never criticise Khameini, Khomeini or Ahmadinejad??????

Is your hate for Republicans so great that you are blinded and prepared to sell out to everybody who is opposing them? You want the Israelis out of that region just like the Madmufti proposes. You are willing to let them develop nukes.

In your point of view, Bin laden surely isn't such a bad guy at all.

- the man wants to chase the Jews from the Middle-East
- he is against Bush and the Republicans
- he is an ally of Iran who surely gonna exchange their weaponery with him

Paul, I'm really waiting on your first thread on the good side of Osama

And concluding: a quote from your admired friend Bill Clinton:

The Israelis know that if the Iraqi or the Iranian army came across the Jordan River, I would personally grab a rifle, get in a ditch, and fight and die."

- Former US President Bill Clinton, July 31, 2002

That is IMO not a quote on bad Republicans who are seeking semen on a girl's dress!

[Videoskooter]

Very interesting link that shows the hypocrisy of the Madmufti, who BTW didn't dare to denounce the holocaust in his speech to the U.N. yesterday.

http://hnn.us/articles/29833.html

[paul]

Originally Posted by Videoskooter

Paul, BTW, I re-read your posts. How come you never criticise Khameini, Khomeini or Ahmadinejad??????

Is your hate for Republicans so great that you are blinded and prepared to sell out to everybody who is opposing them? You want the Israelis out of that region just like the Madmufti proposes. You are willing to let them develop nukes.

In your point of view, Bin laden surely isn't such a bad guy at all.

- the man wants to chase the Jews from the Middle-East
- he is against Bush and the Republicans
- he is an ally of Iran who surely gonna exchange their weaponery with him

Paul, I'm really waiting on your first thread on the good side of Osama

And concluding: a quote from your admired friend Bill Clinton:

The Israelis know that if the Iraqi or the Iranian army came across the Jordan River, I would personally grab a rifle, get in a ditch, and fight and die."

- Former US President Bill Clinton, July 31, 2002

That is IMO not a quote on bad Republicans who are seeking semen on a girl's dress!

I don't crirticize those other guys cause they don't effect me nearly as much as these fascist do!
As for Bin Laden, see your new thread.
I don't know if he wants Jews out the mideast. Israel, I would say yes.
He must like the bush crime family because the texas cowboy has helped recruit more Al Queida members. I don't know what his relationship is with Iran and he could easily get what he wants with Pakistan so don't fall into the mind tricks to goad us into war with Iran. Pakistan has nukes and has Osama's back right now.
And as for Bill, good for him.

[Videoskooter]

Originally Posted by paul

I don't crirticize those other guys cause they don't effect me nearly as much as these fascist do!

That's really showing how brainwashed you are in your leftie-talkgroups. BTW, never hate somebody, it destroys your rational thinking on a subject :D

Originally Posted by paul

As for Bin Laden, see your new thread.

I did one reply there because it proves my first statement 8)

Originally Posted by paul

And as for Bill, good for him.

The second proof that you are really getting obsessed with the Bush family. One day you glorify Bill and if it doesn't come out handy, you denounce him 8) Like you suddenly claim that you don't really like Chavez' politics but that he's your idol coz' he stands up against your PRESIDENT (who BTW is legally elected too, a fact that you will always and forever neglect and will go on for years in your uninspired revisionism).

That's what's happening in Hungaria right now: leftist and wise-nosed bull can fool people for some time but then the masks fall off and the people realise that they are fooled 8)