Happy Holidays????????

[DiscoMan]

Paul as no defense because the historical record speaks for itself.

[paul]

Originally Posted by DiscoMan

Paul as no defense because the historical record speaks for itself.

Discoman, do ya really wanna go down a list a bad guys who happen to be of the right wing conservative persuasion. Let's start with #1 Adolf Hitler. Then there's Francisco Franco, Chiang Kai Shek, Diem of Vietnam, Batista, Duvalier (sp), Pinochet, Ferdinand Marcos, Noriega, Cristiani, Ian Smith, Samuel Doe, and on and on. History is littered with your kind of guys.

[paul]

Originally Posted by Videoskooter

Maybe Johan, Mix and Discoman WILL go to South America but it will not be for sightseeing :o :o :o :lol:

http://www.rocketgrande.com/images/a...mie_buster.jpg

Here's one for ya Johan.

[DiscoMan]

The discussion isn't about "bad guys" Paul. It's about enemies of the United States that liberals/democRats have appologized for or outright supported over the years. That's the list of your
causes.

Of course the most notorious examples are the NLF (Viet Cong) and Pol Pot and the Kmer Rouge.

You all are just waiting and hoping for our ultimate defeat in Iraq and the war against radical Islam.

[paul]

Originally Posted by DiscoMan

You all are just waiting and hoping for our ultimate defeat in Iraq and the war against radical Islam.

Don't you see a problem with your logic here. Iraq was no threat to the US despite it's megalomaniac leader, Saddam. Iraq was the most secular Islamic nation in the region.
The war is already lost in Iraq. We are supposedly there not to conquer but to win hearts and minds. Do you think we are winning hearts and minds when 80% of the population there wants us out?

[DiscoMan]

All of your points are spoon fed left wing propaganda.
I don't think the Iraq war was great strategy. I would have conducted it differently, myself. Americans have died there because of politically correct deference to the left. I could care less about "hearts and minds". When you got 'em by the balls their hearts and minds will follow.

My point remains: The American left including many democRats
are hoping for and actively working towards our defeat in Iraq and ultimately in the war on radical Islam.

I learned all about the left's tactics during my years in the anti-war movement during Vietnam. That is where I came to despise the American left. The tactics employed today are right out of that playbook.

The left and the democRats would willingly sacrifice civilian American lives in another al-Qaeda attack if that would put a democRat in the White House and regain majorities in both houses of Congress.

This is still the war between capitalism and communism.

[paul]

My spoon fed propaganda came in part from congressman John Murtha, the highly respected and decorated Marine veteran who happens to be a democrat. By the way, you may not notice this but a lot of our men and women coming back who are running for office are running as democrats.
I know you righties hate facts but that's the way it is.
I noticed none of you guys are even touching Bush's illegal spying on Americans. This has been all over the news since I originally mentioned it over a week ago. Let's see how your little dictator spins his way out of this one.

[DiscoMan]

Don't change the subject Paul.

Murtha's an exception. And he's no more immune from the politics of this war than anyone else.

I took to the streets to protest one war a long time ago.
We were wrong then.

And I won't do it again.

[paul]

Honestly, I'm not sure what your topic is. Is it capitalism vs communism, US vs Iraq, US vs Islam, US vs the rest of the world?

[DiscoMan]

My point is twofold:

1.
The American left is on the wrong side of history once again. And is actively working for the defeat of the U.S. in Iraq in particular and the war on radical Islam in general.

2.
The overall philosophy of the left is one of opposition to capitalism and support of socialism/communism and NO position the U.S. gov't takes on any issue will be supported by the left
unless and until said Gov't is socialist/communist.

[Videoskooter]

Originally Posted by paul

I noticed none of you guys are even touching Bush's illegal spying on Americans. This has been all over the news since I originally mentioned it over a week ago.

Paul, I'm amazed over the hype. Do you think that your examples, Fidelio and Yugo, are not spying on their people. Wake up Paul! You've never heard of the Stasi, the secret police of the former Eastern communist states? My niece is Polish, she can give you all the details on how free and respected the civilians were under those totalitarian regimes. But if your own president does it and admits it you're furious. I don't get that. Perhaps I would get it if you criticised the likes of Fidelio and Yugo on things like that, but you never do. They are saints and all the conservatives are sinners. And you always come with the same explanation: it's none of our business. Damn it is! Those people are regular threats to the US, Europe and the rest of the Western world.

But Paul is only dreaming of a worldwide Socialist/Communist utopia where people's lives are 100% regulated by the state and everybody is spying on everybody. Have you ever seen the BBC-documentary on North-Korea, where people are singing while they are working? Must sing while working! All the song's lyrics handle the great love and achievements of their completely nutty president. I don't hear you criticise those societies! Oh yes, it's their own choice :o Wait till the moron starts shooting nukes at the US and destroys your beloved cities. Impossible? Won't happen? I hope it for ya Paul.

After 9/11 the CIA was utterly criticised for not having prevented this. Now they are very worried to make the mistake again and they are hardening their policies. We are all under surveillance Paul, just cope with that fact!

And they can read all my mails and posts, whatsoever, I have nothing to hide. I don't support criminal regimes like Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, Syria, Libya and North-Korea.

BTW, the cartoon that you placed. I see those red and bad attempts to do political humour already more then 25 years. They are usually spread by guys with a Mao uniform and a red star on their cap. Do I have to take such morons serious? If they are so horny on Mao and Lenin and Fidel and Che, why don't they move to their favourite countries and leave the people alone who don't want all that commie bull.

[paul]

Originally Posted by DiscoMan

My point is twofold:

1.
The American left is on the wrong side of history once again. And is actively working for the defeat of the U.S. in Iraq in particular and the war on radical Islam in general.

The American left, liberals like me are about what is fair, and just, and right for all human beings. Your philosophy of what I gather "America right or wrong" is not acceptable from my point of view. By most measures, this war in Iraq is illegal. You seem to be more interested in supporting a bad or failed policy than doing the right thing. If from your point of view liberals are on the wrong side of history then I'm sorry to hear that.
By the way, the war in Iraq is creating the radical muslims of concern. Does this logic escape you?

2.
The overall philosophy of the left is one of opposition to capitalism and support of socialism/communism and NO position the U.S. gov't takes on any issue will be supported by the left
unless and until said Gov't is socialist/communist.

You seem to be spouting talking points with little depth. Some on the left may support socialism/communism. Some on the right may support fascism. While everyone is entitled to support their particular philosophy, it's a stretch to put it in the simple black & white terms rank & file conservatives like to use.
Are you opposed to all socialism?
Arguably, what communism offers is not inherently bad. That being a classless society where everyone owns everything in common. Of course I'm aware that what most of us are familiar with is the Marxist Leninist version which took on a totalitarian aspect.
I favor a mix of captitalism and socialism. I suspect though you have some ideal notion of capitalism. Since it's the Christmas season, it's a good opportunity for you to review "A Christmas Carol." It shows an example of the sort of uncheck capitalism around form the middle of the 19th century to the start of the 20th century. If you like debtors prisons, no child labor laws, no wage standards, no envirinmental concerns, labor organizers jailed and killed, and so forth then feel free to expound and it's pluses.

[DiscoMan]

I was in it Paul, up to my eyeballs. There were many patriotic Americans of good will who demonstrated against the 'Nam. They were duped. And they were led by anti-American communist sympathizers. And those same individuals and others of their ilk are leading the charge this time.

The democRats really really need to abandon socialism and return to Jeffersonian liberalism. Urban liberal America debating and compromising with the landed gentry - rural conservatism.

I marched many many times for the ideals I believed in when I was a young guy. Against the War in Vietnam (I was even teargassed in riots), women's rights, against pollution, against government censorship and intrusion into citizens' private lives and civil rights. I have participated in and lived through enough history to be absolutely convinced that the American left has been on the wrong side of every foreign event that was in oposition to American security, foreign policy, tradition and strategy. You and I have much common ground.

However...

The American left wants nothing less than the total destruction of our way of life. That's what they were all about 35 years ago. And they haven't changed. Of this I am convinced.

[paul]

"I marched many many times for the ideals I believed in when I was a young guy. Against the War in Vietnam (I was even teargassed in riots), women's rights, against pollution, against government censorship and intrusion into citizens' private lives and civil rights. I have participated in and lived through enough history to be absolutely convinced that the American left has been on the wrong side of every foreign event that was in oposition to American security, foreign policy, tradition and strategy. "

Should I take from this that being against the war, supporting women's rights, opposing pollution, opposing censorship, and opposition to the government violating the Bill of Rights being un-American activities?
Are you implying therefore that the American way is to have women barefoot and pregnant, go to war for whatever reason, and protect the the flag while the Constitution and Bill Of Rights are burned in ash heap of history?
I hope you find your way back Discoman. You know us liberals, you are always welcome back into the fold.

[paul]

Johan, sorry I missed your last post.
So because some tyranical governments spy on their own people, heh it aint so bad when the Bush crime family does it! Why believe in raising the bar of a civil society. We'll just go in the gutter cause those guys some of these governments are their :roll:

Some of us don't believe the CIA or the FBI people dropped the ball on the events of 9-11. I'm not fooled by that mind trick. I believe the Bush crime family allowed these events to occur cause you'll probably notice, every illegal thing they want to do they justify it with 9-11. Some of you may have read PNAC, a group of conservatives with the likes of Dick Cheney and Paul Wolfowitz. Years before 9-11 they stated they needed a WWII scenario to do exactly what they are doing now.
I believe in the capability of our military and defense systems. They will never get me to believe that 4 commercial airliners were allowed to go off course and make u-turns without military intercepts. As an example, when golfer Payne Stewart's private plane went off course several years ago, F-16s were scrambled. How is it that 4 commercial airliners did this without some order from high up the food chain to stand down!
Anyway to get back to your original point. All the info was out there. The CIA, FBI, other nations, Bush's daily briefings, etc. You can have all intel in the world. If you don't act on it for whatever reason then there is no excuse for violating our freedoms. Hell, aren't we suppose to be fighting to retaing our freedoms! :o