The Jazz Scene of Today

[QUINNY]

Well, Miles always moved with the times. That, more than anything else, made him an all-time great in my books.
Coltrane was from a different generation really and I'm not so sure he would have embraced it, except he was always short of money and might have got 'caught up' (if only as a session musician).
Let's not forget that most forms of jazz until the late '60's on were the dance musics of their day, including Be Bop. Now who could listen to a Be Bop record today, having no other exposure to Jazz, and know it was a dance music of its time (O.K. not entirely for the masses, but the hep cats used to get down to it).

Another good question would be:
Why were so many of the disco records which jazzers made so insipid? In the rush to earn some bread, it seems to me that many of the Jazz fraternity left their balls behind. It's one thing to make a disco record, it's quite another to make a goddamn awful one. Perhaps it's down to the fact that they were doing stuff they didn't fully understand?

[K-Bee]

I actually do enjoy listening to many of the disco incfluenced cuts done by many Jazzers, even if they got very bad rewievs.
Stuff like say "Love Has Come Around" by Donald Byrd were probably totally ignored by fans of his 60s work (I'm guessing here) but I still consider it an outstanding track - it may be far removed from the straight jazz when it comes to instrumentation and general feel - but it works on the dancefloor.
yes - many jazz musicians tried to cash in by jumping on the disco bandwagon and some of the results are less than memorable Herbie Hancocks "Monster" album comes to mind).
I dunno if John Coltrane would have done that as well but since he ended his career doing some sorta spiritually influenced free jazz / avant garde stuff, it is unlikely that he would ever turn to disco had he still been around in the 70s.
...but you never know really. Other's were known to make a similar transformation. Correct me if i'm wrong - but weren't Pharoah Sanders going disco at some point?

Miles doing disco :lol: :lol: well I suppose "The Man With The Horn" was close enough to it. some tracks even sounded like Herp Alpert in places.

[Forrrce]

It's funny...Pharoah Sanders almost went disco - he made an LP with a guy called Ed Kelly which had some soul-disco type influences. He also did an LP (or two) with Norman Connors on Arista which I haven't heard for a long time, but I sorta recall being a little more mainstream than one would expect (and not in the jazz sense).

I agree, the "Disco 'Trane" episode looks very unlikely, mainly because of his continual spirituality and cosmic outlook. Even so, look at Herbie - he's still flirting with the kids' music 30-odd years later, as well as playing what he knows and loves best.

But guys older than him were at it - remember Lionel Hampton's 'Vibramatic' single from 1984? Our man went electro - and he wasn't half bad at it, either!!!!

[K-Bee]

Thanks for bringing up that infamous Lionel Hampton track Forrrce. I heard rumours about that this stuff existed but i've never actually heard "Vibramatic" at all :(
I really forgot all about it until now.....must seek that one out sooner or later.

[Bernie]

Lionel Hampton in the Vault...

http://www.discomusic.com/records/hampton-lionel.html

[orangefunk]

Wow interesting thread! I gotta say I kinda disagree with the whole jazz is in a bad state now... its always been a kind of clique, I find now that its influence is everywhere (perhaps diluted) whether its in some hip hop or soul and I really dig some of these DJ cats who sample.. the Jazzanova CD was incredible I think.. as was Koop.

I actually find a lot of the old stuff quite bland actually, I think the chords got more interesting later on, esp once they discovered stacked 4ths (McCoy Tyner!) my era is definitely probably the 1960s onwards, I love the late 60s soul jazz and even obscure modal jazz of the 70s from guys like Hadley Caliman (the Iapetus and Projecting LPs are fantastic) or Hal Galper (I love the Wild bird LP). I think the 70s was a really great time for modal jazz, theres some real storming jazz sets with no hint of fusion out there...

As far as modern jazz I really liked Joshua Redmans last CD Elastic as I thought it had a lot of energy and ideas, not unlike a Dieter Reith MPS session in fact I was reminded of a lot of reiths quartal riffs (I'm a pianist myself) when listening. Also Brad Mehldau is just awesome, the Largo CD was pretty brave I think in a world of jazz snobbery still wishing it was 1957, I came across that when I went for jazz piano lessons a long time ago... in fact it was much worse he wouldn't entertain anything past 1950!!

I watch German TV now and again and they have loads of jazz concerts, its in a pretty healthy state there I can tell ya... I'm off to Berlin next month.. I hope I can catch some!

Peace
Orangefunk
My gear..
- Fender Rhodes Mk1
- Yamaha P120 Piano
- Roland SH09 Synth
- Laptop and Reason 2.5

[Forrrce]

Orangefunk, do you not class the Hadley Caliman or Hal Galper LPs as fusion?

[QUINNY]

Surely, therein lies the rub?
One man's jazz is another's jazz fusion.
On one level I truly think that jazz finished in the mid to late '60s. It's never had a pure feel to it since then. On another day I think "wait a minute, jazz is still evolving".
I guess it all depends where one's roots lie and/or how old one's mind is. True jazzers will always be open to new slants 'cos that's what Jazz is all about, isn't it? Wasn't the very early Jazz a huge experiment and totally unlistenable to anyone but the few that played it and their not so numerous fans?
Maybe what's happened since 1970 has been the start of a new music form? Who knows?

[Nano]

Some comments on the above posts:

-Many jazz musicians did boring disco albums: I agree with Quinny on that one. Sometimes you just wish these guys turned back on time. In fact, I think that even when they do good, like Herbie or George Benson.

-Coltrane doing disco? No, I think not. Remember his more vanguard stuff was recovered in the 70's by the jazz-rock and fusion guys (John McLaughlin, Carlos Santana et al), which stayed away from the disco path.

-Jazz already finished vs. jazz evolving. I sometimes think that too. You know, the same thing happens with tango in Argentina. When Piazzolla came out many people thought it was marvelous chamber music, but not tango. Time passed and now it seems you can't do tango without sounding a bit like Astor. And his music certainly sounds like tango, even as most of it is not danceable or singable (does this word exist? ). There have been practically no new tango classic songs in the last 30 years outside of Piazzolla.
When Quinny said that I thought well, if jazz died what the hell is doing Wynton Marsalis? But he's a neo-classicist, of course. Fusion could be the new mainstream language.

About the musicians of today, I listened to Brad Mehldau but it's not really my type, too romantic for my taste and with no humor (I'm a big fan of Thelonious Monk). But I saw Michel Petrucciani doing solo in Buenos Aires some 8 years ago, and it was absolutely great. Recently I got his Promenade with Duke CD, where he does Ellington classics, and he's really something. But of course he always does old stuff.
On the fusion path, 15 years ago I liked Pat Metheny a lot (not so now), and I still like some things by Mike Stern and Bill Frisell. Bill's "Gone, just like a train" CD is maybe the last new jazz/fusion album I really heard and liked.

[K-Bee]

Nano,
Im happy to see we have another Petrucciani fan on these boards. This guy cannot be recognized enough.
Sad thing that he's not around anymore - definetely one of the most talented piano players ever to come out of Europe ever if you ask me!

BTW Petrucciani also did fusion stuff occasionally...check out his live album on Blue Note (1994), recorded in 1991.

[Forrrce]

Funny, though - I'm sure that if a poll were conducted on 'today's disco scene', many would instantly question its validity, without thinking it through first. After all, a forum of this kind is concerned largely with the music of a bygone age. But to believe that jazz is essentially past its sell-by date, for any of a multitude of reasons, makes one a luddite and an old fart.

Fair play to those who find more excitement in the newer model than some - if that's really where you're at, then cool - no one's gonna take that away from you. There are others who simply have no desire to keep up with the Joneses, just because they feel it's the thing to do - too many people place emphasis on newness as being a neccesity, but ultimately you can't force it, you gots to feel it. Just kidding yourself otherwise.

As for me, if the grass is green, I'll go there, but I'm quite happy where I am, all the same.

Oh, yeah - I have a Sunshine Sound acetate of Coltrane's Tom Savarese-mixed disco LP for Ariola -OK?

[Nano]

Give me those five, K-Bee! That Petrucciani concert was really something for me. He started by doing a long popurri of songs -around 50 minutes of continue playing- mixing things like "Autumn leaves" with newer songs and free-form improvisation. It was marvelous, not in that flashy, Keith-Jarrett -type of solo improv, but as a long, comforting wave of sound. Never had heard something like that before, and never did since.
I found in AllMusic a CD recorded on that solo tour, and look forward to get it; it must be the most closer I can get to that magical night.

[K-Bee]

The one you ordered....could it be "Au Theatre Des Champs Elysées"?

Released on Dreyfuss in 1995, this 2cd solo piano set is probably Petruccianis finest hour and my favorite cd of his.

Allthough it's not like beeing there (i've seen him live 3 times) it comes pretty close.
The CD has a "Medley Of My Favorite Songs" that clocks at 40:26. feat. Take The A train, Les grellottes and other great songs.

[orangefunk]

Originally Posted by Forrrce

Orangefunk, do you not class the Hadley Caliman or Hal Galper LPs as fusion?

Yes and no, the Caliman LP Projecting is pure acoustic modal jazz all the way although quite contemporary at the time, Hal Galpers Wild Bird LP and Gueriilla Band LP are kinda fusiony, in fact I emailed him a while back expectinh him to be really derogatory about that period and was surprised to get a really warm feeling regarding his "babies" as he called them... the lines he plays are pure bop at times, even though he's playing a rhodes... (interesting side note is that Hal threw his rhodes into the Hudson River back in 1975 so he could concentrate purely on acoustic piano!)

Also I think the word fusion kind of covers a lot of things... when I think fusion I think of mid to late 70s Mouzon or Billy CObham LPs... bland stuff... whereas theres a lot more to it than that I guess... Calimans Iapetus LP from '72 is a classic kozmigroov experience.. just great to hear electronics and acoustic instruments...

[Nano]

Originally Posted by K-Bee

The one you ordered....could it be "Au Theatre Des Champs Elysées"?

Absolutely!