ELECTRO FUNK - GREG WILSON ARTICLE

[QUINNY]

I've read this article before and also seen the top 100 list. I have around 65% of those records mentioned and I played them in Winchester and Southampton (more or less as far south as you can go in England) in fairly average, mainstream discotheques.
Although I undoubtedly followed where Greg lead, I feel it is untrue to say that this was just a Northern phenomenon. BTW Greg, I don't recall hearing of you at the time and some of us had been mixing for 3 or more years by 1981. Many of the records were reasonably sized hits. They wouldn't have achieved that just on sales to underground followers.
I appreciate that Greg was probably a pioneer, but so were many of us DJs. With deference to Greg, a little less ego required and a little more rational thinking methinks. :)

Otherwise an interesting article that more or less tells it like it was in the early '80s, in the UK.

[billywho]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

I've read this article before and also seen the top 100 list. I have around 65% of those records mentioned and I played them in Winchester and Southampton (more or less as far south as you can go in England) in fairly average, mainstream discotheques.
Although I undoubtedly followed where Greg lead, I feel it is untrue to say that this was just a Northern phenomenon. BTW Greg, I don't recall hearing of you at the time and some of us had been mixing for 3 or more years by 1981. Many of the records were reasonably sized hits. They wouldn't have achieved that just on sales to underground followers.
I appreciate that Greg was probably a pioneer, but so were many of us DJs. With deference to Greg, a little less ego required and a little more rational thinking methinks. :)

Otherwise an interesting article that more or less tells it like it was in the early '80s, in the UK.

I'll let Greg off for blowing his own trumpet, because I can confirm he was the Electro DJ in Manchester at the time, achieving legendary status. I have no idea how well or little known he was outside the North West.

[Greg Wilson]

You've obviously got a bit of a problem with this article Quinny; this is the second place on the forum where I've found a post from you questioning the validity of what I've written.

If you don't recall hearing of me it's not because I wasn't there. I contributed charts to Blues & Soul from as early as 1976, and during the 82/83 period that the article focuses on I received regular coverage in the national club press via writers like Bob Killbourne and Frank Elson (Blues & Soul), James Hamilton (Record Mirror) and Lindsay Wesker (Black Echoes). I was voted top DJ in the North by Blues & Soul readers (with my clubs voted 1st and 2nd), and James Hamilton named me as one of the UK's top DJ's in his end of year Hammy Awards. I wrote a regular column for London Jazz-Funk magazine Groove Weekly and a main piece for Mixmag (about the future role of the club DJ) following its arrival on the scene in 83. I was also the first British DJ to demonstrate live mixing on UK TV (The Tube on C4 ' Feb 83).

I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm blowing my own trumpet, call me an egotist if you like but this is how it was. To question my credentials because you haven't heard of me could lead me to question where you got your own information from about the club scene during this period. I'm sure you're very knowledgeable about the history of dance music, but we can't all be specialists in every single area. If I'd attempted to write an authoritative piece about Northern Soul, where my understanding, although better than basic, is still extremely limited, I'd expect the criticism I'd undoubtedly deserve, but I know about the early Electro-Funk scene because I lived it.

I could answer each of your points one by one, and if you want me to I'm prepared to do so, either on the open forum or privately. The information about me that Bernie chose to include at the bottom of the article is not my own words, but quotes taken from various books and publications. I sent this to him so he could draw his own conclusion as to whether the contents of the article could be trusted. I was more than happy for it to be included on a Disco site (as opposed to Electro and Hip Hop sites, where it's already extensively featured), my own DJ background, prior to Electro-Funk, covering Soul, Funk, Disco and Jazz-Funk.

I've no problem whatsoever with people questioning me about what I've written, the article is obviously an overview of a much bigger subject, and I can appreciate that sometimes people would like a deeper explanation of the various aspects. However, if you aren't open to discovering new information, which differs to your own interpretation of how the Electro scene might have originated, then that's your prerogative.

To repeat what I said in the thread on the Discuss Disco Music forum:

As with any type of music journalism there's bound to be a subjective aspect, but somebody has to tell the story and having been there at the time I feel I'm as qualified as anyone to do this. All of the information I included in my own article is factual and can be backed-up (as I said, the early developments were documented by the black music press), so my conscience is clear with regards to any charge of re-writing history. In fact my main motivation was to counter the mis-information that currently exists on the subject, so people have the opportunity to make up their own minds. By sharing my first-hand experiences of the period I hope to fill in some gaps for those who are interested in finding out more about Electro-Funk and its legacy to dance music and club culture.

If anyone wants to contact me direct feel free to e-mail me:
electrofunkroots@yahoo.co.uk

To view the article:
http://www.discomusic.com/disco-hist...ctro-funk.html

[QUINNY]

Greg: I did write 'with deference' to you, so I wasn't particularly trying to beat up on ya'. All I know is that I was in Southampton and Winchester and I did play most of those tunes as a part of my nights programming. I never envisaged myself as an electro DJ as I imagined what I played was maybe just the underground side of mainstream.
I sorta partly remember your appearance on the Tube. I used to love that show even though it was mostly R&R. It had such a youthful energy.
Sorry for not recognizing your name. I guess I'd be peeved, but then again, I never went looking for plaudits, so couldn't be disappointed. Like thousands of others, I just went in and did my job as best I could. I doubt if anyone remembers me and I'm happy with that.

BTW: It is interesting to note some numbers which are called Electro by you. Would you put say Northend 'Tee's Happy' in the category? Arthur Baker, Electronic drums, synths, suggested dub sound to it.

[Greg Wilson]

It wasn't about you not recognizing my name Quinny (you must have me down for Mr Ego personified!), it was the insinuation that because you didn't know who I was the article was somehow flawed. I'm sure the majority of people who use this site have never heard of me either, so I'm hardly going to be peeved about that.

Anyway, in answer to your question, yes I would put Northend alongside D Train, Stone etc, amongst the early examples of the developing Electro-Funk sound (although this term didn't come into use until more than 6 months later). 'Tee's Happy' was a big track for me (but not quite up there with the 100 included on the list), and although, like D Train, it would nowadays be seen as a Disco track, back then it stood apart as something a little bit different to the norm. It was certainly an important track in terms of Arthur Baker's development (Michael Jonzun also had a hand in it).

The follow-up (to all intents and purposes), 'Tee's Right', this time credited to Michelle Wallace (who received a featuring credit on 'Happy Days', the vocal side of 'Tee's Happy') was also popular in early 82, but it was another Emergency release that went absolutely massive for me, 'Feels Good' by Electra, which arrived on import in May 82 (the same month as 'Planet Rock').

[QUINNY]

Greg: All I'm trying to point out is that some Southern jocks were playing healthy amounts of Electro back in '82 and '83, so it is wrong to just call it a Northern thing. O.K. you were actively seeking them (records) out and specializing. Maybe, just maybe, there was a little more of an influence down here than you realised. I thought every jock was playing the stuff. Maybe, just maybe, I was wrong.
BTW. My audience was 99% white.

[Greg Wilson]

Nowhere in the article do I suggest that this music was played exclusively in the North, or that it was purely a Northern thing. My actual statement was that the roots of the Electro-Funk scene are planted firmly in the North-West of England.

What you must take into account is that during 82/83 Legend in Manchester and Wigan Pier were the biggest clubs in the North bar none when it came to the black music scene. London and the South was still a Jazz-Funk stronghold with the Soul Mafia holding sway. There were isolated DJ's in the capital who began to feature the more electronic type tracks, but as Gordon Mac (then the DJ at 'Kisses' in Peckham) remembered; "you were treated like a leper because this Electro music wasn't seen as real instruments, it was electronic music and just a noise. I mean you wasn't allowed to play Electro on any of the pirate stations. All the pirate stations at that time were Soul stations, and Funk stations, and Jazz-Funk stations, and all that stuff. It was all white socks and nodding dogs".

The London scene was fragmented and without a focal point, whereas Legend and the Pier were central to the club scene up-North, and known to pretty much every DJ in the region (if not the country). On top of this my radio mixes on Mike Shaft's Manchester Piccadilly show (the most listened to Soul show outside of London), allowed me to take Electro-Funk to a much wider audience at a time when Mike's Soul show contemporaries in London, Greg Edwards and Robbie Vincent, would never have entertained such an idea.

I can't really comment on your own venues in Winchester and Southampton, all I can say is that there's no documented evidence of there being a thriving Electro scene there. If, like you say, these were "fairly average, mainstream discotheques" with an audience that was "99% white", then I can't believe that you could possibly have been playing some of the same records at the same time as they were being played at clubs like Legend and the Pier.

All the tracks featured on these nights (bar the rare exception) were US imports, and by the time the bigger tunes (like those on the top 100 list which accompanies the article) had crossed-over into the mainstream venues, it was extremely unlikely that they were still being played on specialist nights (which prided themselves on being musically upfront).

There was generally a couple of months gap between a record coming in on import and it's eventual UK release. In the case of the Peech Boys, I began playing this track in March 82 yet it didn't enter the UK chart until the following October, its eventual release due solely to demand from the more upfront clubbers. Remember, the underground brought many of these tracks to more mainstream attention (as it had with previous types of dance music, from 60's Soul onwards).

Many DJ's, especially those on the Jazz-Funk scene, despised the 'more blatant' Electro. Surely you must remember the politics that raged about the validity of this new musical direction. So it would be way off the mark to believe that "every jock was playing the stuff".

[Giovanni]

Hey guys, please stop quarrelling !!!
Almost EVERYBODY played electro at that time.... do you want some cassettes of mine?!?! :D

[Greg Wilson]

Hi Giovanni, not quarrelling just debating the finer points of a movement which has always been shrouded in confusion from a UK perspective.

I'd be interested to hear from you how Electro was received in Italy (presuming you were there at the time, of course). I can't imagine the same type of politics came into play as here in the UK, where there was an almost puritanical attitude to black music at the time Electro arrived. As I said, not everyone here played Electro (although I accept this may have been different elsewhere).

One of the biggest tracks in the early days of the Electro-Funk scene was an Italian release, 'Dirty Talk' by Klien & MBO (the instrumental version). It would be revived some years later and also receive classic status at the Hacienda during the House explosion. How popular was this track for you?

[QUINNY]

Greg: No wind up, just interested why you came to certain conclusions. Like I said I wasn't an Electro guru so obviously I wasn't playing loads of imports, absolutely upfront. I wasn't specializing. I don't doubt that your consumption was much more prolific.
I see you have the "I played it first" bravado that was previously so rife on the Northern Soul scene. Was it Wigan that brought this out in people? :lol: IMO that sort of attitude (on the NS scene) had little to do with music or the love of it, but I'll assume that you were genuine in your motives.
In your article you wrote/ implied that it took almost 2 years for the mainstream to catch up, now you're saying maybe 2 months between import and mainstream release. Well, that's when my audience would have caught up. So what was it? Surely it doesn't really make one iota of difference. The tracks were either played at approximately the same time or they weren't. They were either good or they weren't. A few months hardly makes a huge amount of difference. New records, whether on import or on domestic release still have to gain acceptance. It's not automatic. I wouldn't have had loads of people in my audiences who'd hiked it fresh from Manchester or Wigan and knew all the sounds. I doubt if I had any. You may as well have played them on the planet Zorg for all the influence you would have had on white people here, in mainstream discos. We wouldn't have heard them on radio either. Are you trying to say that you were more or less responsible for all the releases on UK labels 'cos you broke them all? If so, I'd take my hat off to you, but I can't imagine that is the case. Are you really trying to say that whole Electro scene sprung up because of you and without you none of it would have happened? I'm a little confused.
From my own perspective, I wasn't aware of 'puritanical' forces, any backlash or anything else. I simply don't remember any huge arguments with fellow DJs. I remember a feeling in the air that something different was beginning to happen. I remember hating Planet Rock, I personally thought it was absolute crap, but it didn't stop me playing it. I just went with the flow and it was in late '81 early '82 that this all began to happen.
If you include Southampton and Winchester in the South-East, then I have to tell you that you're way off mark saying that we were still heavily into jazz funk by '82. If anything, the average punter was into the British New Wave sounds if you're looking for a dance music that had some momentum behind it. Jocks like myself resisted this as much as we could and so the Electro sounds were like manna from heaven in comparison. They sounded black, they had fearsome beats and they gained pretty quick acceptance. London may well have been a law unto itself, I can't really comment except to say that the influence of the DJs you mentioned wasn't really felt that strongly 78 miles away from the capital. We couldn't tune into their radio shows either.

[Giovanni]

Originally Posted by Greg Wilson

I'd be interested to hear from you how Electro was received in Italy (presuming you were there at the time, of course). I can't imagine the same type of politics came into play as here in the UK, where there was an almost puritanical attitude to black music at the time Electro arrived. As I said, not everyone here played Electro (although I accept this may have been different elsewhere).

OK Greg, let's debate seriously!
When disco began to fold, around spring-summer of 1980, many records came out announcing a different wave in dance music. Most of these records were not from the US (Over and Over by Disco Circus, Disco's dead by The Critics, Heartbreaker & I wanna take you there by Gino Soccio, I'm ready by Kano to name just a few). Many discotized pop rock bands began releasing extended dance version of their tracks (Human League etc) and many black funk bands began contaminate their sounds with rock guitars and electronic drum machines (Prince and the Minneapolis movement, GrandMaster Flash's "The message", Bambaataa and all the New York hip hop school, The black No Wave movement).
In Southern Europe and in Italy, black music was no so highly revered and these contamination found a fertile ground in the djs, the people and producers too. The djs split in two categories: who kept playing black music (hip hop, scratch, and then electro), and who went on the new wave of italo disco. This happened around 1981 to 1982 and lasted for no more than 2-3 years. By 1986 everybody was playing house.

Originally Posted by Greg Wilson

One of the biggest tracks in the early days of the Electro-Funk scene was an Italian release, 'Dirty Talk' by Klien & MBO (the instrumental version). It would be revived some years later and also receive classic status at the Hacienda during the House explosion. How popular was this track for you?

Dirty talk was a monster hit all around here, since we had it first on the small italian indie Phoenix. The entire album received lot of disco play (Wonderful, MBO theme, Big Apple theme, Deja vu). Its sounds were so different from what we have heard before that you had to decide, love it or hate it. I liked very much, even if I am a funky disco lover

[Greg Wilson]

Giovanni: Thanks for the info about the Italian scene.

Quinny: Looking around the various forums on this site I've come to the conclusion that wind-up must be your middle name. You seem to get into mischief all over the place!

Now I'm fully aware of this I can see that it was pointless for me to get into this with you in the first place. No matter what I say you're going to look for a way to further confuse the issue.

This thread began with you questioning the validity of what I'd written, and I naturally felt a need to respond, which on reflection was probably a mistake.

You're obviously entitled to your own views and opinions, regardless of whether they're right or wrong, but I foolishly thought I might be able to help clarify a few things for you by addressing your reservations. Little did I know that I was on a hiding to nothing!

I take my hat off to you Quinny, you're a master of the back-handed compliment! Some of your comments have really brought a smile to my face, but when Giovanni added his post, asking us to stop quarrelling, I thought this must be coming across in a negative way. I'd rather my article had not been included on here in the first place if I thought it would result in bad vibes of any kind.

So, with this in mind, I think it's best that I leave it there. This is the first time I've participated in a forum and it's been a learning curve for me. Thanks for the education!

Before I go, one thing you mentioned that deserves comment is the New Wave / Futurist movement in the UK, which was far more receptive to the emergence of NY Electro than the Jazz-Funk scene, and undoubtedly helped to bring certain records to mainstream attention.

Anyway, that's it from me as far as this subject is concerned. Take care Quinny, I'll leave it for you to have the final word on this particular thread.

[QUINNY]

Greg: I'll tell you something. I don't know how I wind people up. Seriously, if I knew the answer to that I'd be more than willing not to do it.
I wasn't questioning the validity of your article, just one or two minor points, which I think we cleared up? It's a shame we can't take this debate any further, I was hoping to learn something more, as the early '80s were an exciting time in Disco music so far as I was concerned.

[DISCODISK]

firstly welcome GREG WILSON welcome to discomusic,i was really pleased to see your name here and really enjoyed your article i did want to say that before but seeing quinnys comments about one upmanship sort of steered me away [in disqust] i dont know you personally but we have sort of crossed in the past i used to buy records from you and have even had you wading through tapes in the past to identify records and you have written to me telling me youve found them for me,i know theres no one upmanship with you or indeed any of the other d.js you used to work with i.e richard searling ,colin curtis etc whom i do know just fantastic d.js who have only done all the things they have done for a pure love of music thats why all you guys are so respected by so many.quinny could NEVER undertsand what we had in the northwest going right back to the 60s,he coul NEVER understand just what the northern soul scene was like [he seems to have a lot to say about it but hes never been to an event in his life] so dont expect him to understand what the northwest electro scene was like and dont even mention the hacienda!its a shame new members have to meet quinny when they open the door it happens all the time, i sit here and cringe the best way is just to step over him.look foreward to more discussions greg i would like to say more but im SERIOUSLY
late for work :lol:

[QUINNY]

DISCODISK: Oh dear!!!!