No Soul at the MOBO's

[Simon White]

The MOBO (Music Of Black Origin) awards here in the UK contain no category for Soul music.
A small and dignified group made a protest at this months awards and you can see it here -

YouTube - protest against mobo's

[SandraDee]

There is actually a soul award, it's just called r'n'b these days; it's always been called r'n'b in the US so we're just copying them now. Soul seems to be used nowadays as a term for old black music from the 60s & 70s. Don't ask me why though.

[Simon White]

Sandra, I think the artists who made the protest, Omar, Bluey, Rasaan Patterson and Ola Onabule would disagree and so it seems would a number of other artists like Beverley Knight, Corinne Bailey Rae and Joss Stone who do not consider themselves R & B artists.


http://www.soultracks.com/story-MOBOs

Nor it seems do 'Echoes" magazine, who organised the protest, nor do the two leading UK Soul Labels who were represented there, Expansion Records and Dome Records.

[SandraDee]

I totally agree with their protestations Simon as these days r'n'b seems to be a very specific 'sound' which bears little resemblance to soul, but traditionally in the US, r'n'b meant soul/funk type music. It's really annoying the way that the term 'soul' now gets used in a retro way in the same way that disco does.

[qdearl]

Originally Posted by SandraDee

I totally agree with their protestations Simon as these days r'n'b seems to be a very specific 'sound' which bears little resemblance to soul, but traditionally in the US, r'n'b meant soul/funk type music. It's really annoying the way that the term 'soul' now gets used in a retro way in the same way that disco does.

And I guess to add insult to injury.....

Here in the states, artists like Corrine Bailey, Joss Stone, Rashaan Patterson, etc. are referred to as "Neo" Soul artists, at least by those of us who want to make that distinction between new original soulful songs, and that reconstituted sampled mush they call R&B these days, some of the main differences being, going light on the sampling, more live instrumentation than digital, and actual meaningful lyrics.

BTW - Chaka Khan's new CD just dropped, I've heard a few of the tracks on the radio and it's definitely worth picking up

[buckaroo]

Originally Posted by SandraDee

...it's always been called r'n'b in the US so we're just copying them now.

Dunno about that Sandy. Years ago in the US, R&B artists usually consisted of old men and women singing to or playing highly orchestrated music, which appeared on their own 'Race' charts In the '60s and seventies there were soul singers like Marvin Gaye etc and we even had some in England (Linda Lewis, Maxine Nightingale et al) But alas, around the end of the '80s soul music got sidelined by most of the dreadful drug fuelled crappy commercial dance that dominated our charts. And we were surprised to see a 'black' chart on America's Top 10 when it was shown here around that time. Don't misunderstand me as a hater, because actually I liked some of the really good dance and house like Frankie Knuckle's 'Tears', and Adonte's 'Dreams'. But alas we had groups in our top 10 with samples from the theme to Sesame Street for christ's sake . Swing-beat was okay in the early and mid '90s but died on it's proverbial arse. Then came this phenomena known as Modern R&B sidelining soul even further. I like R&B when it's good. A lot of it now isn't alas.

The true reason there isn't a Soul category at the MOBOs, is because it isn't as commercially accepted as R&B is now. And because, it doesn't get the same exposure. It's pure economics. The MOBOs organisers want to attract the biggest American stars to it's ceremony, because they have sponsors to satisfy and promote. They tend to forget that these 'stars' are ALWAYS being invited to useless awards shows all the time. But it's good publicity to see Rhianna or whoever on the news at your show. She didn't turn up this year, neither did 50 Cent.

Another sickening thing, is the way druggie Amy Wino Winehouse was lauded like Aretha Franklin, even though she's only released one album, and had one hit single.

Soul is out there, but you have to look for it. They're not offering it to us.

[Simon White]

Originally Posted by buckaroo

Dunno about that Sandy. Years ago in the US, R&B artists usually consisted of old men and women singing to or playing highly orchestrated music, which appeared on their own 'Race' charts In the '60s and seventies there were soul singers like Marvin Gaye etc and we even had some in England (Linda Lewis, Maxine Nightingale et al) But alas, around the end of the '80s soul music got sidelined by most of the dreadful drug fuelled crappy commercial dance that dominated our charts. And we were surprised to see a 'black' chart on America's Top 10 when it was shown here around that time. Don't misunderstand me as a hater, because actually I liked some of the really good dance and house like Frankie Knuckle's 'Tears', and Adonte's 'Dreams'. But alas we had groups in our top 10 with samples from the theme to Sesame Street for christ's sake . Swing-beat was okay in the early and mid '90s but died on it's proverbial arse. Then came this phenomena known as Modern R&B sidelining soul even further. I like R&B when it's good. A lot of it now isn't alas.

The true reason there isn't a Soul category at the MOBOs, is because it isn't as commercially accepted as R&B is now. And because, it doesn't get the same exposure. It's pure economics. The MOBOs organisers want to attract the biggest American stars to it's ceremony, because they have sponsors to satisfy and promote. They tend to forget that these 'stars' are ALWAYS being invited to useless awards shows all the time. But it's good publicity to see Rhianna or whoever on the news at your show. She didn't turn up this year, neither did 50 Cent.

Another sickening thing, is the way druggie Amy Wino Winehouse was lauded like Aretha Franklin, even though she's only released one album, and had one hit single.

Soul is out there, but you have to look for it. They're not offering it to us.

Some interesting points there buckerooo...not sure who R&B's "old men and women singing to or playing highly orchestrated music, which appeared on their own 'Race' charts" though... surely most of them weren't old men and women then !

But Soul has now become, unfortunately a term used by a lot of people to describe an 'old' style of music, in the same way as 'Disco' tends to be used to describe a 70's style, when in fact, like Soul, Disco just morphed into a hybrid. Thus for instance Joey Negro's House music has a heavy Disco flavour and Roisin Murphy, a name popular on these boards kind of makes Disco too.

Soul...as you say it never went away, it just changed and became less mainstream. There are lots of artists out there now making great stuff. These current names often take their cue from great artists like Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye and Donnie Hathaway, and so tend to be at the smoother and more reflective end of things rather than the rougher styles and voices of the 60's. As for the girls, Maysa Leake, Jill Scott, Beverly Brown ect...take your pick.

You say "The true reason there isn't a Soul category at the MOBOs, is because it isn't as commercially accepted as R&B is now." and I think you've hit the nail firmly on the head there and that, coupled with the perception of 'Soul' as 'old' music is why they don't have a category.
And that's despite the fact that singers like Joss Stone and Amy Winehouse (who I think is the most important and best British voice ever, in any style) are very commercially successful. Soul is seen as an 'old' style....Joss Stone is very firmly in that traditional style.

Amy Winehouse's 'Back To Black" (actually her second album I think ..the first, 'Frank' is also great ) is a masterpiece, because it doesn't do quite what you expect. Its a very clever, modern and knowing album containing some amazing moments and references to the past, Soul, R&B, Reggae and and importantly, Jazz. Lyrically shes amazing. Even Amy's very well publicised lifestyle ( and don't the public love to read about that !) reflects stars like Sarah Vaughn, Etta James and Esther Phillips. Remember, those girls were not angels either !

What happens next at the MOBOs remains to be seen.

[SandraDee]

Originally Posted by buckaroo

Dunno about that Sandy. Years ago in the US, R&B artists usually consisted of old men and women singing to or playing highly orchestrated music, which appeared on their own 'Race' charts

I used to read alot of Blues & Soul mags in the late 70s & early 80s & the US writers always described people such as Eath Wind & Fire, Rockie Robbins or Brother Johnson, for example, as R'n'B rather than the soul or funk or disco used by UK writers. Also some of the US members on this forum used the term to describe soul/funk music of that time, so it doesn't just apply to the days of race charts or to that plastic hip-hop hybrid you get these days.

[buckaroo]

Hi guys.
I should've put a smiley face after my "Years ago in the US, R&B artists usually consisted of old men and women singing to or playing highly orchestrated music, which appeared on their own 'Race' charts" quote, as I reckon that is how people like the organisers of the MOBOs look upon original R&B. "Soul? Isn't that something people used to dance to in flares?" "Didn't they Swallow-dive and do all those silly things?" We can thank those stupid post-modern programmes (made by 20 somethings usually) that always show clips of dancers in 'Northern Soul' clubs. I'm no expert anyway.

[eddie]

In the US, R&B and soul are quite often interchangeable and terms used as 'catchalls'. I would refer to 60's soul like Lorraine Ellison or Aretha Franklin as deep soul.

I'm glad somebody liked that Amy Winehouse disc as its not my cup of tea after a few tracks.

[SandraDee]

Originally Posted by eddie

I'm glad somebody liked that Amy Winehouse disc as its not my cup of tea after a few tracks.

Amy, along with other 'new jazz hypes' like Jamie Cullum & Michael Buble seem to think they're better than they really are.

[Simon White]

Originally Posted by SandraDee

Amy, along with other 'new jazz hypes' like Jamie Cullum & Michael Buble seem to think they're better than they really are.

I do think Amy's brought something very fresh to the table...lyrically she's brilliant and vocally she nods at classic voices like Sarah Vaughn and Esther Phillips, Nina Simone...but with her own unique sound too.
And that look makes me go all hot and cold.......

Surely her musical style is very different from Mr Buble and Mr McCullum who are more along the line of standard Jazz/Pop crooners like Sinatra (obviously) Jack Jones and Matt Monroe?

[buckaroo]

I'm kind of tired hearing this girl referred to as a 'diva' in the press mainly. A true diva, with drug/relationship problems would put on a brave front. Because, the show must go on boys and girls! A true diva would not forget lyrics while on stage, then verbally abuse punters who've paid serious duckets to be at a concert. Liza Minelli was a Diva. Diana Ross is a Diva. Even, dare I say it...Mary J. Blige is a Diva. She's had a fair few problems in the past, but has cleaned up her act. Miss Wino is going to end up 6 feet under, if she doesn't wake up and smell some java.

[SandraDee]

I so agree bucky baby. Where will Ms.Winehouse be in 30 or 40 years time? Not in the same position as Ms. Ross I'll bet. Whatever happened to professionalism?