Discussion on Hard to Find Northern Soul & Disco 45s? within the Funk, Jazz, Northern Soul, Rare Grooves forums, part of the General Music Discussions at DiscoMusic.com category; The bottom line here continues to be : If it wasn't about that , why weren't Motown's big dance songs ...
|
#16
| ||||||
| ||||||
| The bottom line here continues to be : If it wasn't about that , why weren't Motown's big dance songs played ??? ***** Hi Marmite thanks for your input . I hope you can humour me while I take a few pokes at it ...... Quote:
Quote:
Northern Soul was about the the obscure/ hard to find 60's soul/ dance songs ... ie ... as you say the records that hadn't already been worn out via the radio .... This attitude really didn't apply as firmly to disco as you suggest however ... DJ's cared only how their floor reacted to the song ... nevermind what was happening with it elsewhere .... or its ranking on the radio . Many (most) clubs depended on those radio hits to carry the night though .... I looked at Marky's latest chart to check out the relationship : Billboard HOT 100 Top 10: for September 11, 1976 1) (Shake, Shake, Shake) SHAKE YOUR BOOTY - KC & The Sunshine Band (T.K.) (1st week @ #1) Number one on the radio and #12 for disco club play that same week 2) YOU'LL NEVER FIND ANOTHER LOVE LIKE MINE - Lou Rawls (PIR) and #10 club play same week 3) PLAY THAT FUNKY MUSIC - Wild Cherry (Sweet City/Epic) #3 radio and #14 disco same week and climbing 6) YOU SHOULD BE DANCING - Bee Gees (RSO) ( #1 last week) dropping from #1 on the radio but still #1 in the clubs 7) LOWDOWN - Boz Scaggs (Columbia) yet still floating around in the clubs after 14 weeks ..this week climbing from #28 to #21 Billboard Soul/R&B Chart #1: 1) PLAY THAT FUNKY MUSIC - Wild Cherry (2nd week @ #1) Already number one Soul .... but still climbing in the disco clubs Quote:
Quote:
ie .....the more obscure/ hard-to-find ones Quote:
................... .... but not sure how that relates to NS ??? Quote:
& thanks for providing me some good stuff to chew on ... best wishes back at 'cha. *****
__________________ Last edited by remicks; April 29th, 2007 at 03:12 AM. |
|
#17
| |||||
| |||||
| ***** Hi Sageone. Thanks for your input. I hope you can humour me while I take a few pokes at it ...... Quote:
Quote:
Disco music didn't use such factors like these to define itself ... but Northern Soul had its constraints as described . Quote:
Well.... The point of Northern Soul was dancing to a select type of soul records of the 60's . Quote:
There was an intentional choice made by the Djs ... by their crowds .... to play only the obscure /hard-to-find soul songs from the sixties ... and not the so called popular R&B soul of the time . Seems we're all basically saying the same thing here ... doesn't it ... Quote:
Have a good one Sageone *****
__________________ Last edited by remicks; April 29th, 2007 at 01:06 AM. |
|
#18
| |||
| |||
| remicks dear old thing, your postings make sense only to you I suspect, bless ya ! But I do admire you knack of confusing everything and making it look like everyone agrees all along with what you'd already said if only they'd understood what you said properly in the first place. Anyway, in an attempt to put the thread back on topic and go back to the original question therefore avoiding another 'remicks is always right ' festival djsonic asked: "what are some of the most rare and sought after singles?" marmite cited the book "The Northern Soul Top 500" which is not a bad starting point although it is is by no means a definitive look at the whole Northern Soul thing and doesn't claim to be. In fact some of the choices are clearly the authors own and as it was published seven years ago it doesn't take into account records that have become popular since then. As an instance, I was DJing (alongside others much better and more knowledgeable than me) at an event last weekend and the three records that got most dancefloor reaction across the nite were The Brothers 'Are You Ready For This', Sidney Barnes 'Standing On Solid Ground' and AC Reed 'My Baby's Been Cheating (I Know)' three records that are, in order, a disco record, a recently made record, and an 'R&B' track, none of which are in the "Top 500" in the list and all records that throw the mythical Northern Soul rulebook away...unless you go by dance style in which case they all work perfectly ! One of the biggest records on Northern soul dancefloors right now is 'Ain't No Mountain High Enough' by Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell a US top twenty hit on Motown..hardly rare or obscure ! However, the top record in the list is the well known Frank Wilson 'Do I Love You' the amazing story story of which is well documented (2 known copies exist) and technically someone paid £15,000 for the record. I don't know what that is in dollars this week. A random selection of 20 from the next 200 on the list gives the following a mixture of rare and easy to find...if you know where to look ! I'm not saying they're the rarest or most sought after ...I bought a record I've wanted for a few years myself recently that isn't in the book for instance but was sought after by me (Pat Sands And The Pebbles 'Loving Him' on Sussex...the Billy Woods record listed at number 115 below is also on Sussex (a Van McCoy production incidentally) and is price listed at £2000 - Pat Sands is considerably less ! No. 5 Jimmy Radcliffe 'Long After Tonight Is All Over' No. 13 The Tomangoe's 'I Really Love You' No. 20 R Dean Taylor 'There's A Ghost In My House' No. 32 Lou Johnson 'Unsatisfied' No. 39 Little Anthony And The Imperials 'Better Use Your Head' No. 44 The Voices Of East Harlem 'Cashing In' No. 46 Bobby Hutton 'Lend A Hand' No. 50 Dee Dee Sharp 'What Kind of Lady' No. 63 Darrell Banks 'Open The Door To Your Heart' No. 64 The Spinners 'I'll Always Love You' No. 76 The Tams 'Hey Girl Don't Bother Me' No. 78 Paul Anka ' I Can't Help Loving You' No. 82 Christine Cooper 'Heartaches Away My Boy' No 90 The Yum Yums 'Gonna Be A Big Thing' No. 100 Millie Jackson 'My Man, A Sweet Man' No. 111 Ike and Tina Turner 'Dust My Broom' No. 115 Billy Woods 'Let Me Make You Happy' No. 157 James And Bobby Purify 'Shake A Tail Feather' No. 177 NF Porter 'Keep on Keeping On' No. 192 Earl Van Dyke And Motown Brass '6 X 6' As I say, thats a random selection of loved tracks from the "500" book that the Northern Soul clubs and dancefloors have loved, some more obscure than others and records that, in the main, anyone involved with the Northern Soul scene would know and dance to, and possibly have themselves (praise be the CD !) in some form or another. Two of 'em I played last weekend seven of 'em I had in my playbox last weekend (none of them were rare or particularly obscure), one of the above list I wouldn't give the time of day, three of the above list are Motown non hit records, but equally playing The Four Tops 'Something About You' or 'Shake Me Wake Me', both US top twenty, would have worked too. |
|
#19
| ||||
| ||||
| ***** I know I'm at risk of being a ball hog here ... sorry .... but I happen to be right here when you posted Simon ... .....and while I don't want to divert from your wonderful post aimed directly at the initial topic ... I do see a couple of places where you slide in a couple of comments more aimed at me and mine ... so if you don't mind.... I'll briefly respond . Please skip the remainder of this post if you'd prefer not to be any more confused or sidetracked .... Quote:
Quote:
It's simply up to you to adequately set me right ... isn't it ?? Quote:
I mean seriously Simon ..... if you're going to posthumously claim that Marvin Gaye and Tammi Terrell's "AIN'T NO MOUNTAIN HIGH ENOUGH " has now become a Northern Soul song .... Hell just claim the whole Motown catalogue as Northern Soul and get it over with . OK those are my additional confusing comments for you ..... you dear old thing love always remicks *****
__________________ Last edited by remicks; April 29th, 2007 at 04:52 AM. |
|
#20
| ||||
| ||||
| "OK .... then it should be easy to name 10 "Northern Soul " songs that were also big hits." By definition matey, Northern Soul "big hits" would be few & far between due to the lack of sales at the time of release! By the time a particular tune became popular on the dance floors of Britain, it had already been recorded, pressed, distributed, deleted and forgotten about.....................only to be resurrected, revered and sought-after. A few hit the (UK) charts second time around (on re-release), such as: Dean Parrish - I'm On My Way Jackie Wilson - I Get The Sweetest Feeling Little Anthony & The Imperials - Better Use Your Head R Dean Taylor - There's A Ghost In My House Willie Mitchell - The Champion Ramsey Lewis - Wade In The Water Showstoppers - Ain't Nothing But A HouseParty Tami Lynn - I'm Gonna Run Away From You Tommy Hunt - Loving On The Losing Side but these were the lucky ones to be picked up by major labels. The vast majority of Northern Soul tunes were originally released on small independant labels and sunk without trace. Your chart comparison, although interesting would not have looked the same 6 months down the line, as the DJ's would have stopped playing "You Should Be Dancing" for example and moved onto something "new". N. Soul DJ's couldn't do the "new" bit, but they could spin something which had only recently been unearthed from the vaults, someone's garage, yard, shed or wherever unsold stock gathered dust. "OK ... but that's only because club music no longer (or only rarely) makes it to radio ... right? .... But .... then again today's rap clubs feature music getting radio play .... so you would hear chart fodder there" Not sure about The US charts dude, but over here we still have huge club hits (Infernal - From Paris To Berlin, Darude - Sandstorm), crossing into the mainstream charts, but once they achieve that status no self-respecting DJ would drop the tune at a gig, unless you were at a Ritzy's-type club I still go clubbing (Boomslang @ The Junction, in Cambridge), where DJ's such as Kid Kenobi, Stanton Warriors & Krafty Kuts play for 6 hours without one chart hit..................and for that I get down on me knees and thank the lord "but Northern Soul had its constraints as described" The ONLY constraint, is that a tune falls under the banner "Northern Soul". Jackie Wilson's I Get The Sweetest Feeling is as much a Northern Soul record as The International GTO's - I Love My Baby or The Present's - Many The Slip. One a world-wide known hit record, the other two obscure rarities. But all three still fit the bill. *hangover still throbbing so off for coffee*
__________________ Dance Till You Drop |
|
#21
| |||
| |||
| Nice post marmite and hopefully it clears up a few things for remicks. |
|
#22
| ||||
| ||||
| **** are you kidding!!!! but it's very late .... I'm very tired .... AND I have to work in the AM so hold those thoughts ...... *****
__________________ |
|
#23
| |||
| |||
| remicks posted: "Yes . But disco was about breaking the sounds bubbling under that could go on to become big hits ( or not) ... Northern Soul was about playing only the bubbling unders that didn't go on to become big hits ... ie .....the more obscure/ hard-to-find ones " I dont think disco, Northern Soul, Funk, Rock, Latin etc are about anything other than music and maybe dancing. You are referring to genres as if they are a PR manager at a record company. A genre isnt a person it doesnt have an agenda or a purpose, it doesnt have clearly defined boundaries, there are so many grey areas. Essentially it is a marketing tool but in reality it is just music, it is what the artists intended, to move people either physically, mentally or to make a buck, and it either appeals to you or it doesnt. To talk about a genre as if it is "about something" seems a little ridicuous and trivial (to me). To me its like saying disco was about 12" records. Last edited by sageone; April 29th, 2007 at 06:00 AM. |
|
#24
| ||||
| ||||
| Quote:
Quote:
But there does seem to be that certain line that gets crossed when a song stops being of a certain genre ..... for instance when a record 's sound is no longer one that would be heard in a disco . I like tryng to determine those lines ... ridiculous and trivial to some ... but I personally like exploring it .... Because I do think there are these certain parameters that define genres ... this is how one decides if music is reggae , country ...Hawaiian . I mean how would you like to go to a punk rock concert expecting to do some hard core mashing and up on stage there's Peter Paul & Mary .... and they say ..."Hey don't get caught up on boundaries ...marketing tools ... it's all music." Secondly I don't consider Northern Soul a "genre" . I consider it a cultural phenomena ...(the music that was used within it was largely from a specific genre ..."American Soul" ). And yes this phenomena was about a specific something . It wasn't just about just dancing ... or rather it wasn't about dancing to just anything ... It was very deliberate in what was driving it .... with certain requirements of the music used .... certain records were played while others were not ...... or else there'd been no need for DJs to go out dumpster diving. It was a very special , sincere sort of wondrous type of happening that really was "about something" . *****
__________________ Last edited by remicks; April 29th, 2007 at 09:23 PM. |
|
#25
| |||
| |||
| Quote:
i dont think you got what i was talking about at all firstly you are commenting that northern soul is about collecting and playing obscure records. does that mean it is? The thousands of people who went to all nighters - was their priority to only dance to a record if it was obscure, that to me seems to be trivialising the movement? It is highly reductionist. By your definition anyone who has a collection of obscure soul records has a "northern soul" collection, anyone who plays obscure soul records is a northern soul dj. My point was that any definition has to be loose as there are always exceptions there are always records that trancend any boundary that you or I can give it. Take soul makossa many people consider it an early disco record, others consider it to be afro funk. Who is right? You are taking a very black and white view. That northern soul was "about" one thing. I am allowing for the possibility that it wasnt "about" anything but instead had many and varied elements. Certainly one of those elements was obscure records but it neither begins nor ends there. |
|
#26
| ||||
| ||||
| "Because I do think there are these certain parameters that define genres ... this is how one decides if music is reggae , country ...Hawaiian . I mean how would you like to go to a punk rock concert expecting to do some hard core mashing and up on stage there's Peter Paul & Mary .... and they say ..."Hey don't get caught up on boundaries ...marketing tools ... it's all music." Larfing my rrrs off here "Secondly I don't consider Northern Soul a "genre" . I consider it a cultural phenomena ...(the music that was used within it was largely from a specific genre ..."American Soul" ). And yes this phenomena was about a specific something . It wasn't just about just dancing ... or rather it wasn't about dancing to just anything ... It was very deliberate in what was driving it .... with certain requirements of the music used .... certain records were played while others were not ...... or else there'd been no need for DJs to go out dumpster diving. It was a very special , sincere sort of wondrous type of happening that really was "about something" Remmy - I sort of agree with ya here, going back in the day.....although NOW it's a genre Before, I'd go with the phenomena, happening or wotever you wanna call it, but now you hear a record for the first time and instantly one classifies it. I'm still hearing N Soul tracks I've never heard before, and without knowing what they are, you instantly know it fits the bill. To you it may be 60's soul or rnb, but to the trained ear ( It must be a genre in its own right, otherwise Ebay wouldn't have a seperate section! "American soul" is an all-encompassing phrase which sounds good, but doesn't differentiate between those tunes you can dance to and those you can't! Sitting On The Dock Of The Bay is classic US Soul, but it won't get these feet stomping
__________________ Dance Till You Drop |
|
#27
| ||||
| ||||
| Quote:
I'm with you on the fuzzy lines surrounding genres of music... but some seem much more definable than others. Disco is one of the hardest because it never sat still long enough to be any one thing... and wasn't trying to either. Quote:
AND they also had to be obscure releases : that was rule #2. YES? ......NO ? ..... DO I have this part wrong ??? Didn't the songs have to be obscure ?? Or did the Northern Soul crowd dance to all the Motownish songs of the 60's ....regardless if they were already hits or not ?? For example ... The Four Tops I CAN'T HELP MYSELF . Played or not ? *****
__________________ Last edited by remicks; May 3rd, 2007 at 12:43 AM. |
|
#28
| ||||
| ||||
| "OK .... then it should be easy to name 10 "Northern Soul " songs that were also big hits." Quote:
What I'm seeking to clarify is ....none of these songs were hits when they were first released correct ??? IOW their initial Northern Soul play began as obscure songs ... Quote:
Is American Soul a genre ?? Is Northern Soul ?? ******
__________________ Last edited by remicks; May 2nd, 2007 at 01:47 PM. |
|
#29
| ||||
| ||||
| Hiya Remicks :) Sorry for the delay, but been busy busy busy. "I'm not trying to trivialize it ... just trying to pin it down for what it was ....so .... as I understand it .....the songs had to have that sixties Motownish faster dance beat : that was rule #1 ... AND they also had to be obscure releases : that was rule #2. YES? ......NO ? ....." Er, yes & no A record didn't HAVE to be obscure, it's just that as records were discovered and played by the jocks, most of them were getting their first ever spin in the UK. Obscure to be begin with, then common fodder once other DJ's tracked a tune down. Arthur Conley - Sweet Soul Music, was dropped 10 times the first night it was played at The Twisted Wheel (legendary N.Soul Club). Hardly an obscure record, now, but at the time it was fresh / new. Many tracks were bootlegged, making them more accessible to the punters, with three famous tracks (gathered on one 7") selling enough to ensure it a top 10 position.................however, as all the sales were through small independant record shops, it never dented the charts due to the shops not being included in sales/chart returns etc. The three in question? Dean Parrish - I'm On My Way Tobi Legend - Time Will Pass You By Jimmy Radcliffe - Long After Tonight Is All Over The three tracks played at many clubs at the end of the night. Dean Parrish was the first N Soul track I ever heard, without knowing what it was. I'd been dancing to Motown, Soul & Disco all night and this track would close the proceedings every Saturday. It wasn't until 2 or 3 months later I found out what, who, and where I could hear more of the same. IE: A Northern Soul, 60's & Motown nite at a local British Legion club in Norwich (my home town). I braved this new world, resplendant in my 2nd generation Mod gear, obligatory scooter parked outside and a few friends for support and what I found inside blew me away. Music I'd never heard before (in the main), but to lots of people dancing, they were already firm favourites & standards by their definition & experience. This may sound corny to you, but watching for the first time as everyone "in the know", did the double hand-claps (one up, one down) during Jackie Wilson's I Get The Sweetest Feeling, made my hair stand up on end. I observed, tried to work out how the dancing was done, what happened during the "break" in a tune, then threw myself headlong into the groove. Every now n again, a tune would be spun which I recognised (usually Motown), or in one instance Frankie Valli - You're Ready Now and the whole place would errupt. A few months down the line and after going on a spending spree, I took along a copy of Candi Staton's - Now You've Got The Upper Hand for the DJ to spin. The crowd whooped, hollered then applauded at the end. Something they did (and still do) to certain tunes. If a DJ dropped The Four Tops - I Can't Help Myself at a N.Soul do now? I'd dance me sox off, cos you can't deny that beatin rhythm As for the tunes I mentioned and the dates they were recorded? Between 1964 & 1968.
__________________ Dance Till You Drop |
|
#30
| ||||
| ||||
| YouTube - Tobi Legend - Time Will Pass You By= YouTube - long after tonight is all over by Jimmy Radcliffe YouTube - Dean Parrish live to TM CLUB I'm on my way
__________________ Dance Till You Drop |
| Bookmarks |
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
| |
| | ||||
| Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
| When Exactly Did Disco Die and When Was the Beginning of the End? | garrybcoston | Disco Music of the 70s and 80s | 101 | November 30th, 2008 08:10 AM |
| define disco | graeme | Disco Music of the 70s and 80s | 21 | October 4th, 2008 07:13 PM |
| JAZZCAFE MARCH 2nd: UKSoulJam Ft VULA(Basement Jaxx), KEEP THE FAITH, SoulLounge+more | ||||