Northern Soul: That's Not Northern Soul... It is Now

[Simon White]

Originally Posted by remicks

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These are among the songs the above post is claiming are now being credited as " Northern Soul " :p:evil:

Tavares 'Heaven Must Be Missing An Angel' :p:p:p:p:p
The Trammps 'Hold Back The Night'
Ecstasy, Passion And Pain 'Ask Me' :p':p:p
Ultra High Frequency 'We're On The Right Track'
Silvetti 'Spring Rain':p:p:p:p
Sons Of Robin Stone 'Got To Get You Back',
Crown Heights Affair 'Dreamin A Dream' ,:p:p:p:p
Isaac Hayes 'Disco Connection' :p:p:p:p:p boy talk about balls .... the song is DISCO Connection for crying out loud ,
Double Exposure ' Ten Per Cent' :p:p:p:p:p Give me a break !!!!
Gentlemen and Their Lady 'Like Her' ,
Brainstorm's 'Lovin Is Really My Game':p:p:p:p:p

This from a group that was proudly anti-disco . :evil::evil::evil:

I know the goal here is to sell old records for bigger bucks .....and claiming they were all Northern Soul helps achieve that goal ...
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Here's what I actually wrote, Remicks-

"As has already been pointed out, the Northern Soul clubs have been playing what some would call 'Disco' since the mid seventies....well the ones who don't operate an almost exclusively 60's Soul policy at least. Tracks that most in these forums would term as 'Disco' (as a positive thing rather than the disparaging term it is often, but not always, given within the Northern Soul scene itself)) like 'Heaven Must Be Missing An Angel' Bessie Banks 'Don't You Worry Baby' The Trammps 'Hold Back The Night' The Nights 'When You Dropped Your Guard', Ecstasy, Passion And Pain 'Ask Me' Ultra High Frequency 'We're On The Right Track' Lily Fields 'Love Has So Many Meanings, Rare Pleasure 'Let Me Down Easy' ,Lew Kirton 'Heaven In The Afternoon' , Silvetti 'Spring Rain' , Sons Of Robin Stone 'Got To Get You Back', Ace Spetrum 'Don't Send Nobody Else' Crown Heights Affair 'Dreamin A Dream' Lolleatta Holloway 'I Know Where You're Coming From', The Spinners 'I Just Want To Fall In Love', Street People 'You're My One Weakness Girl', Mary Wilson 'You're The Light That Guides My Way', Chuck Jackson 'I've Got The Need' , Skip Mahoney 'Janice', Isaac Hayes 'Disco Connection' Crystal Motion 'Main Squeeze' James Wells 'Baby, I'm Still The Same Man' , Double Exposure ' Ten Per Cent' ,King Tutt 'You Got Me Hung Up', Jan Jones 'Independant Woman', The Moments 'Nine Times', Gentlemen and Their Lady 'Like Her' , The Pages 'Heartache And Pain', Brainstorm's 'Lovin Is Really My Game' etc etc have all been played at some point in Northern Soul clubs. One track that is currently being played all over again is Tyrone Barclay's 'Man Of Value' and recently popular is the fantastic and previously unreleased Bobby Cutchins Philly styled track 'Leaving' which was issued on 45 on 'Soul Junction' by Grapevine records, a label that has released and re-released many many Northern Soul tracks in the past like The Flaming Emeralds' Have Some Everybody'. "

Northern Soul (uptempo 60's club dance music) has a very close connection with what (musically) came later...70's uptempo club dance music...or....Disco."

and this is the relevant line...."have all been played at some point in Northern Soul clubs."


I don't claim them as Northern Soul records..I say they have been played "at some point in Northern Soul clubs" a statement which carries a significent but perhaps too subtle difference. 95% of the world would tell you those records were 'Disco' and ironically 90% of the Northern Soul crowd would tell you the same thing. And the reason for that is..they are.

I doubt if records like 'Disco Connection' 'Heaven Must be Missing An Angel' or Brainstorm have been played in a Northern Soul club by anyone other than maybe Ian Levine (although I doubt 'Disco Connection' was one of his favourites) for many many many years. Those particular types of record were of a style he introduced to the Northern Soul crowd as new releases ...it made him very unpopular amongst the hardcore Northern Soul crowd who mostly wanted ast driving 60's 'stompers' , ironically the style most like 'Disco'.
The records Ian made later as 'High Energy' and the Motorcity recordings reflect Ian's love of both Northern Soul and Disco because he fully understood the connection between the two dance styles and scenes. Ian left the Northern Soul scene a few years ago but before that when he played them it would have been as part of a retro set representing the club in which he first introduced those type of sounds to the Northern Soul crowd, The Mecca in Blackpool.
Remicks,you would have to learn more about the Northern Soul scene to understand all this. I do suggest you read the books which would help you understand the complexities. If it helps you understand, think along the lines of Larry Levan and records that have become known as 'Loft classics' although as we all know they were also beign played in clubs all over the world.



So I, like you like Disco records...but then we part company because you see the term Northern Soul as a bad thing because you think the Northern soul scene is stealing Disco, although it's been pointed out that they have been playing some Disco records since the 70's and have been playing a number of Disco (i.e. uptempo dance music made during the Disco era ) records that America lost at the time. I notice you took out the records you didn't know from my original list. Does that mean you do not claim them as Disco and we can keep them or do you think we should give them all back to you ?? ;-)

And as for your statement "I know the goal here is to sell old records for bigger bucks .....and claiming they were all Northern Soul helps achieve that goal ..." I think you'll find that the dealers doing that come from you side of the pond ! :-D

I have a feeling the second half of my radio show this week is going to feature some of the 70's records relevant to this debate !

[tony98]

Simon i worked in a record shop in the 70's we sold Disco & Northern Soul ,so i've heard these arguements dozens of times. For anybody who who's not from the U.K. this subject must be very puzzling.In those days my mates went to Wigan Casino & Blackpool Mecca,but gave up on Wigan in the "Simon Soussan & Joe 90" days.

[Simon White]

Hi Tony..the funny thing is the arguments usually come from the Northern side of things eh?
As you say, it's difficult to understand the Northern scene from the outside...its pretty difficult from the inside too.

The Northern scene suddenly picked up on Gayle Adams 'Baby I Need your Loving' about two years ago (how I loved danced to that one as a new release !) and The Futures 'Party Time Man' a record I find it difficult to like. But they both divided opinions strongly while at the same time showing the diversity of music that's played on the Northern Soul scene.
Simon Soussan is (as you already know) another controversial figure from the scenes past but readers on these this forums will know him via Arpeggio, Patti Brooks and The Simon Orchestra (their version of 'I Close My Eyes And Count To Ten' is one of the definitive early High Energy records for me) and the first Shalamar release .. who according to Ian Dewhurst (who visits these pages I think) were named after the Verve girl group The Shalamars who 'Stop And Take A Look At Yourself' was a big Northern Soul record (sorry Remicks!) and was co written by Sidney Barnes...who sang in Arpeggio and who's 'Love and Desire' was a re write of Sidney's own song and another one well known on the Northern scene 'Stronger Than Her Love' ! sung by The Flirtations who in turn made
Disco/ Hi Energy records later on, like the great 'Earthquake' for instance. So there are the Northern Soul connections again.


As for Joe 90...some things are better left unsaid...;)

[Bernie]

Simon,

Thank you for giving us a glimpse into the wold of the Northern Soul scene. A scene that so many including myself do not fully understand, but are learning more each day through insightful postings such as yours.

[remicks]

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Ya Simon ......"thanks" alot !!!! :p
Looks like I got all worked up over nothing !!

I'm relieved though to have misunderstood all this ..... and that the Northern Soul crowd is apparently sticking to their original intentions ..... non-hit uptempo soul records and continue to leave disco alone ... as they should.


I took a look at Kev Roberts 'Northern Soul Top 500' and I could find only one song on there that I'd contest as disco ......Gil- Scott Heron's THE BOTTLE .... all the rest .....they can have !!!! :p I saw nothing else on there remotely close to the disco you said maybe, perhaps , but its doubtful got played .

So :roll:...................just what the heck was the point of your list anyway ????? The one with the crass disco classics HEAVEN MUST BE MISSING AN ANGEL and SPRING RAIN.....
Syrupy sweet SPRING RAIN !! ( why in the world would the SPRING RAIN record even be physically near a Northern Soul club ???) And Silvetti ?? Is he black ?? I have no idea .....but if not that right there would have made it a big no-no ! (Come back to the disco side where you belong Silvetti ...we don't care what color you are ! ) ................. ( Also Biddu is Eastern ..... not black )

So to clarify :
These are disco songs that maybe/ might've been played .....perhaps ... but only in a secondary club or two .... briefly .... or once or twice at most by Ian Levine perhaps but then would've been booed out by the disco hating crowd ......maybe

Am I clear on this now .... 'cause I don't want to go through that again !!!!!


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[Simon White]

Originally Posted by remicks

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Ya Simon ......"thanks" alot !!!! :p
Looks like I got all worked up over nothing !!

I'm relieved though to have misunderstood all this ..... and that the Northern Soul crowd is apparently sticking to their original intentions ..... non-hit uptempo soul records and continue to leave disco alone ... as they should.


I took a look at Kev Roberts 'Northern Soul Top 500' and I could find only one song on there that I'd contest as disco ......Gil- Scott Heron's THE BOTTLE .... all the rest .....they can have !!!! :p I saw nothing else on there remotely close to the disco you said maybe, perhaps , but its doubtful got played .

So :roll:...................just what the heck was the point of your list anyway ????? The one with the crass disco classics HEAVEN MUST BE MISSING AN ANGEL and SPRING RAIN.....
Syrupy sweet SPRING RAIN !! ( why in the world would the SPRING RAIN record even be physically near a Northern Soul club ???) And Silvetti ?? Is he black ?? I have no idea .....but if not that right there would have made it a big no-no ! (Come back to the disco side where you belong Silvetti ...we don't care what color you are ! ) ................. ( Also Biddu is Eastern ..... not black )

So to clarify :
These are disco songs that maybe/ might've been played .....perhaps ... but only in a secondary club or two .... briefly .... or once or twice at most by Ian Levine perhaps but then would've been booed out by the disco hating crowd ......maybe

Am I clear on this now .... 'cause I don't want to go through that again !!!!!


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I think you're as clear now as you ever will be, Remicks.

[tony98]

Ian Levine getting a hard time off a disco hating crowd? I was there ,a Blackpool Soul Alldayer in 1978 with D.J.s playing a cross section of Soul music and Ian played Greg Diamond "This side of midnight" - Boo.Hiss.Boo.

[remicks]

Originally Posted by tony98

Ian Levine getting a hard time off a disco hating crowd? I was there ,a Blackpool Soul Alldayer in 1978 with D.J.s playing a cross section of Soul music and Ian played Greg Diamond "This side of midnight" - Boo.Hiss.Boo.

I pity the crowd .....they missed out .



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[tony98]

In the late 70's at Blackpool Mecca Ian Levines set consisted of a wide variety of music ,including thigs like Dr. Buzzard "I'll play the Fool". George Duke "Party down" & Funkadelic "One nation under a groove" it's all good stuff but a section of the regulars hated it. I played on the same bill as him a few years ago. he's gone back to his Soul roots and he played some great unreleased Motown stuff.

[hope]

well guys do i have a treat for u and hopefully will dispell the myths from the facts about "northern soul"
if u didnt know i am from the u.k and was born and bred in blackpool (home of the mecca ) was a recent promoter of the rhythm dome (formerly "the mecca") and my bestest friend in the world id "dj barrie jay" which tony as u r into ur club scene i am thinking u will of heard of him he was there for the wigan casino/ blackpool mecca scene right at the forefront and i have shown him this thread of which he is dying to add his input , memories and vast knowledge top. so expect him signed up n giving u more food for thought in the very near future

[tony98]

Hope.a good friend of mine originaly fom Middlesbrough,has lived in Blackpool for a long time and D.Js frequently playing Disco ,Funk&Soul,(Hi Jimmy) he usually checks this site.He knows everybody in Blackpool.He has a record collection thats taken over his house and he blames me for getting him started.

[QUINNY]

Originally Posted by remicks

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Brainstorm's 'Lovin Is Really My Game':p:p:p:p:p
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This was pure NORTHERN SOUL and that's why I still don't like it to this day. Too fast, too non-disco in its sound.

Northern Soul is/was all about Eliteism and Big Bucks. Even Simon W admits he'd gladly take a record he doesn't like off of your hands, 'cos he could make a killing. Just about sums up Northern Soul for me. GREED, GREED, GREED.

Having said that, I'm sure there are quite a few who were/are into the scene purely for the music........the ultra rare, mostly crap music (to my ears, but I am a Southerner). Sure, the scene rescued countless forgotten 7"s, most of which should have remained forgotten AND they ripped off most of the artists/producers/arrangers left, right and centre by pressing up bootleg copies and selling 'em at highly inflated prices.:roll: :roll: :roll: (BTW: just how did the Nothern Soul scene do anything for 95% of the artists/producers/arrangers that it 'discovered'? How could a scene that places rarerity above quality ever achieve very much?)

The Northern Soul scene became totally fabricated.....undeniably true and undeniably sad, for those who started it all off with a true love of their music.:cry:

[Simon White]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

This was pure NORTHERN SOUL and that's why I still don't like it to this day. Too fast, too non-disco in its sound.

Northern Soul is/was all about Eliteism and Big Bucks. Even Simon W admits he'd gladly take a record he doesn't like off of your hands, 'cos he could make a killing. Just about sums up Northern Soul for me. GREED, GREED, GREED.

Having said that, I'm sure there are quite a few who were/are into the scene purely for the music........the ultra rare, mostly crap music (to my ears, but I am a Southerner). Sure, the scene rescued countless forgotten 7"s, most of which should have remained forgotten AND they ripped off most of the artists/producers/arrangers left, right and centre by pressing up bootleg copies and selling 'em at highly inflated prices.:roll: :roll: :roll: (BTW: just how did the Nothern Soul scene do anything for 95% of the artists/producers/arrangers that it 'discovered'? How could a scene that places rarerity above quality ever achieve very much?)

The Northern Soul scene became totally fabricated.....undeniably true and undeniably sad, for those who started it all off with a true love of their music.:cry:

Why so bitter Quinny ?

Of course I would take the record off your hands...just as I would your car if I thought it had a resale value or your house ect. Did the USA invent capitalism or was it a concept they borrowed? :D
I object VERY strongly to your assertion that I'm greedy. My statement regarding the King Tutt record was said with a tongue in cheek, as you and anyone can plainly see. In the same way as you inply I'm greedy I could imply you are stupid. But I wouldn't do that because I'm not that rude.

You post about achievement or lack of it..you state "How could a scene that places rarerity above quality ever achieve very much?"... and therein lies the crux of the matter. America didn't want those records or Artists..did they..because they didn't 'achieve'. So what you say doesn't add up does it?

You say they are "mostly crap music" so why do you care? Why do you insult those artists, writers and producers with that statement? Do you want them back now then? Why would you? Whats the agenda?

The Northern Soul scene doesn't place rarity above quality. That statement shows your ignorance of the whole thing and suggests to me that your are rather obsessed by the money side of things. Darrell Banks made the most wonderful records, some of which have been played on the Northern Soul Scene for many years and none of which are rare..likewise J J Barnes, Fontella Bass, Judy Clay, The Shirelles ect ect.. I could go on.
Darrell Banks who was shot dead, didn't even have a gravestone until recently...and now he does because members of the UK's Soul loving community made sure he did !

The Northern Soul scene is probably more passionate about the artists and music than any other in the world and has been for more than thirty years. Maybe the Doo Woppers come as close, but of course, they NEVER bootlegged on that scene did they...or on the Disco / Dance scene? That was irony by the way ! I see many many many bootleg Dance 12"s, things that are easily licenced but the bootleggers don't even bother. Sure it was a big problem on the Northern scene in the early days..but these were VERY rare and obscure 45's..and I'll remind you again the USA was throwing them away. Some are still rare to the point that only five or six copies have ever surfaced. It was often impossible to licence them because the OWNER of the track wasn't traceable (do you know how that works?).. no internet remember and a great big expensive ocean between Europe and the USA.
But in subsequent years the artist on those records, the writers, producers ect have benefitted from the numerous CD issues of tracks that were originally consigned to the dustbin by America. Artists that America ignored and continues to ignore have been paid to come to the UK and been adored. :-D They mean NOTHING to America because America ignored them.

Quinny, I don't think you really know what your talking about. Have you ever sold a sceond hand record? Ever bought one ? Ever thought that was ripping off the artist? Have you checked up on all the vinyl or CD's you've bought in the past just to make sure the artist hadn't been ripped off at source level ?

I know exactly the arguements that will come back..I've heard them all before. :roll:


Your last statement
"The Northern Soul scene became totally fabricated.....undeniably true and undeniably sad, for those who started it all off with a true love of their music.:cry:"

suggests in a very patronising way that you think the Northern Soul scene lost it's way..thanks for you concern but you really don't need to worry. It didn't because as a movement it is probably stronger now than its ever been. Companies like Ace Records are doing FANTASTIC compilations of forgotton American Soul music that are unrivalled anywhere in the world. There a magazines books internet sites and more Northern Soul club nights than we actually need (to be honest).

I personally have been involved with a compilation CD of a now departed artist and we have gone to great lengths to contact a member of his family to pay them for two tracks we are using... and do you konw what? It's like pulling teeth trying to pay them money that in real terms they probably have no right to..but we can't find who else to pay. And do you know what else? We actually don't have to pay them but we want to do the right thing. And for your information, it's a Southern soul artist! :D

The fact is...the USA didn't want those records or those artists. And now suddenly Quinny you are interested because...? Why do you care exactly? :D

[QUINNY]

I don't care at all, but as this is a debate about Northern Soul, I thought I'd add my two cents, as I DJ'd through its golden period and used to have a few Northern Soul freaks giving me a hard time most nights. I'm exacting my revenge.

Your posts show yet another side of Northern Soul....fanaticism. Never a good thing in my books, as fanatics don't see anything except the thing they're fanatical about. Add the average Northern Souler's evangelical zeal and I cringe, especially as I've only ever heard a few Northern Soul records that made me go ooh. It is a genre you either absolutely love or absolutely hate. Well, surprise, surprise, I'm in the latter camp as many of the records I've ever heard just make my stomach turn. JOE 90 THEME anyone, SLICED TOMATOES?

It's very honourable of you to try and pay royalties to some of the long forgotten artists who'll be appearing on your compilation CD AND YES, YOU ARE LEGALLY BOUND TO PAY THEM or their representatives. So I'm not impressed, as it's what I'd expect anyone to do. However, the very fact that you used this as an example of how caring and sincere the Northern Soul scene is/was, actually works against it, because it sorta acts to highlight the way in which it was raped and pillaged in the past and the fact that those attitudes may still exist underneath the glossy exterior. I have to admire those people who contributed to the headstone as it was a terrific gesture.

Yes, it would appear that the Northern Scene is posssibly better supported today than it ever has been. I for one don't enjoy the tracks they now play on Radio 2, on what seems an increasingly common basis. I just wish you'd all go away and leave the world in peace.

BTW: I get the impression that nearly every Northern Soul fan is a dealer of some sorts, always ready to make a quick buck. Is this NOT true?

Finally, please don't pretend that the scene is not about greed and money, at least partially. Otherwise, why do so many Northern Soul CD releases have the value of every track contained therein? Why would I or anyone else NEED TO KNOW that a track is worth £600, £1,000 or £10 if we're only intetested in the sounds?

[Prefab Sprouter]

The one thing I love about this debate is how everyone is trying to "fence" in their type of genre and put up barriers to say what is and what isnt Northern Soul or Disco. I love both genres although am an expert in neither so I cant comment on particular tracks, HOWEVER if the track is good what does it matter???? Its not about the label, its about whether you like the track or not. I dont personally care about what genre a song belongs to I am only interested in it if it makes me wanna dance!!!