Isaac Hayes : Don't Shaft

[remicks]

*****

James Brown rightfully deserves a lot of credit for his musical output and influence . The " Godfather of Soul" ... absolutely. "Soul Brother #1 " ....sure.
When it came to makin' it funky .... he said it loud.

But ..... James Brown .... " The Original Disco Man" ??
........... Don't think so .....

That distinction goes to ........Isaac Hayes . 8)

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[discodevil]

Did Isac sing with Gloria Gaynor at some stage?

[originalbigm]

I think the title "The Original Disco Man" needs to be viewed in it's context.I would agree that Isaac Hayes may have been one of the originators of the disco sound.However James Brown's funk numbers were by far more prevalent in the disco playlists of the early to mid seventies.I think that was what JB was refering to and not that he originated the disco sound since he was strictly funk.

[galocha]

Originally Posted by discodevil

Did Isaac sing with Gloria Gaynor at some stage?

Yes! They recorded together Barry White's song "You're The First, The Last, My Everything". It was in a Gloria Gaynor's album, and it's credited as "Gloria Gaynor Feat. Isaac Hayes"

You can listen to it here:

http://200.154.150.26/includes/inter...php?id_art=539

It's a very cheap recording. No real instruments, all synth. Actually, her whole album was recorded that way.

[remicks]

Originally Posted by originalbigm

.I would agree that Isaac Hayes may have been one of the originators of the disco sound.:

.... which is precisely my point.

"However James Brown's funk numbers were by far more prevalent in the disco playlists of the early to mid seventies.

Do you think so ?? .... I recall at best they received light play . I believe James Brown's tunes barely managed to scratch the bottom of the disco charts. One major reason his tunes at that time didn't do so well on the dancefloor was because he apparently wasn't too interested in trying to fuse his own trademark sound with the emerging dance sounds of the 70's...... ( which was not very "discoman" of him ! ) .

James Brown had his shtick down pat way before disco. And when he saw it coming .... he didn't embrace it.... didn't explore it.... didn't incorporate any of its characteristics into his music. He persisted with his own sound all the way through the disco era . He opted for a musical world that coexisted with disco . ( You could even say he remained in a total funk !! :roll: :P )
Nothing wrong with that either ... ....but to resist the trend , to maintain an older funk formula throughout the mid and late 70's and then to later claim to have also been the original discoman.... ...... well.....
:P :P :P ...

Isaac Hayes though .... when listening to his inventive music from 1970-73... it's evident that he's exploring and developing some distinctive musical notions that would in a few years come to be identified as " disco". 8)

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[QUINNY]

In the early '70s I had more James brown records in my record boxes than any other single artist!! He was essential for the dancefloor and he did embrace Disco to some extent (e.g. For Goodness Sakes, Take A look At Those Cakes, Get Up Offa That Thing [pure hi hat driven hustle?]). His self proclaimed 'King of this' or 'Godfather of that' didn't fool anyone at the time. We all looked upon them with a certain amount of amusement, but with a knowing nod to the man's unprecedented credentials. Let's face it, Disco emerged from Funk as well as Philly, so he has a rightful place as one of the 'inventors' of what would become known as Disco.

It's less easy to see the connection now, after 30 years, but at the time he had more danceable records under his belt, in more styles than anyone else. He did move with the times....maybe sometimes he was just too hip!

[remicks]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

In the early '70s I had more James brown records in my record boxes than any other single artist!!

Well no wonder ... he pumped out at least one new one per month !! . Over here, as disco became the dancefloor focus , James Brown , with his well-worn funk formula and his unwillingness to incorporate even the slightest amount of euro or philly disco to his sound left him to be viewed , in some of the more hip DJ circles, as the original disco anti-christ!

OK, seriously .... no one guy was the original discoman ....and James Brown had a danceable groove that of course contributed in some ways to what would lead to disco.
STILL, I venture to say there is little about hard-core disco that would evoke an "aha !! James Brown!" response in the final analysis. James Brown had his own little funky niche he established in the 60's and he didn't venture very far from it over the years. It took others to advance the dance groove into something else, the sound categorized as disco.

Brown would have been an apparent play in the 60's-- on into the 70's . I'd be far more impressed if you said you had a bunch of Isaac Hayes' records in those crates too !! :P

he has a rightful place as one of the 'inventors' of what would become known as Disco

Fair enough . ... one of the inventors , and in his case inventor with a small " i " .
But still, I'll put on Isaac Hayes' HOT BUTTERED SOUL (1969 !!!) or JOY(1973) and you put on any James Brown groove of your choice ...and we'll figure out who more accurately should have been calling themselves "The Original Discoman" in 1979.

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[Disco Funk]

I can only speak as someone on the outside looking in because I wasn't around in the late 60s, early 70s when those guys were doing stuff that would be considered the roots of disco. James might have a case for claiming to the be the Original Disco Man, because his output was mostly dance oriented, whereas Isaac did more romantic balads, with funky undertones. I wouldn't doubt that his stuff from '69 and '70 would have been great to play in clubs, like Walk On By, but from my perspective, they were less clubby than James songs like 'Get Up ( I Feel Like Being A Sex Machine)', 'Soul Power', 'Give It Up Or Turnit Loose' (the 1970 version), or even earlier tracks like 'I Don't Want Nobody To Give Me Nothing' and instrumentals like 'The Popcorn'.

Isaac certainly cornered the funk with strings market early on with Theme From Shaft and Theme From The Men in '71/'72, but those were two songs versus James stuff from that time like 'Talkin Loud & Saying Nothing', 'I Got Ants In My Pants', and 'Get On The Goodfoot'.

But lets face it, James did Papa Was A Brand New Bag and Outa Sight in '64 which were protofunk records that would lead into stuff like Cold Sweat in '67, way before Isaac even did his first album. So he truly was the 'original disco man'.

Disco Funk

[QUINNY]

Wanna hear James brown's most danceable record pre Disco (apart from Sex machine), then check out There Was A Time?
That was sooooooo revolutionary when ot came out. Straight ahead 4/4 uptempo funk that really did the business.

There's no contest between Ike and JB. JB wins hands down when it comes to danceability. Ike was not much more than a cabaret act by comparison.

[Disco Funk]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

Wanna hear James brown's most danceable record pre Disco (apart from Sex machine), then check out There Was A Time?
That was sooooooo revolutionary when ot came out. Straight ahead 4/4 uptempo funk that really did the business.

And it was a live recording. I don't know if it was done that way in a previous concert or if it was a spur of the moment, but it was essentially a reworking of the outro to Let Yourself Go. I think The Dapps played on that track, because there was a version of that recording that had a sax solo (no vocals) that was credited to the Dapps, which was an all-white group led by Beau Dollar. It's on this compilation. If you listen carefully you can hear James vocals faintly, so I think the sax was overdubbed later:

Nothing But The Funk Vol. 3

It also appeared on the 'It's A Mother' album under a different title, and it had lyrics like 'hey hey, I feel alright one time' which cued the band to hit the notes. I think it was called 'Little Groove Maker'. The band plays quietly behind JB, not the full onslaught of the regular version.

Disco Funk

[remicks]

*****

Alright ..... I'm not through here yet !!! :P
Should I take it then , from the lack of response ... not too much Isaac Hayes in the ol' record crate box ......???

Originally Posted by Disco Funk

But lets face it, James did Papa Was A Brand New Bag and Outa Sight in '64 which were protofunk records

Disco Funk

OK .... yes those are ..... "protofunk " records .... but I'm talkin' disco here .....

Quinny : There's no contest between Ike and JB. JB wins hands down when it comes to danceability"

Danceability ? .... again ... I'm specificically addressing the concept of "disco". Heck .... Glenn Miller and Tex Ritter had even more danceability than James Brown .... so , then what ??? :-?

". James might have a case for claiming to the be the Original Disco Man, because his output was mostly dance oriented,.... that would lead into stuff like Cold Sweat in '67, way before Isaac even did his first album. So he truly was the 'original disco man'."

Using this reasoning ... Chubby Checker trumps James Brown . That means Chubby Checker should have been calling himself the "original discoman" in 1979. . :roll: ..........

James Brown had a great dance groove .... but then .... so did Frankie and Annette ... ( check out those jumpin' beach parties. ) !! I 'm addressing who was most developing the elements in their musical style that would point to them as " the original discoman " .... disco .... not danceability .... not funk ......

I don't know the tune " THERE WAS A TIME ' but I assume that is the one you are choosing that exhibits James Brown at his most disco- est . Will be interesting to put it up alongside the music of Isaac Hayes . Several of Isaac's comps would work just fine ..... but I think I'll suggest "THEME FROM THE MEN " .....1972

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p.s. ------ PAPA WAS A BRAND NEW BAG ( wasn't that the Temptations / James Brown medley mix ??) :P :lol: .... 8)

[Disco Funk]

LOL! 'Papa Was A Brand New Bag', yes it was written by Norman Whitfield and James Brown.

I guess Chubby Checker could claim to be the original disco man, but we're comparing James and Isaac, and James' insistance that he was the original. I'd say he was doing uptempo disco tracks before Hayes. 'Talking Loud & Saying Nothing' from 1970 and 'I Got Ants In My Pants' and 'I'm A Greedy Man' from late 71/early 72, are good examples. I will admit that later 70s albums contained weak attempts at disco. If he had made more tracks like Body Heat I think he would have had good claim to a 'Godfather of Disco' claim. I think he lost a lot of steam by the mid 70s because everyone started leaving and he was running out of ideas, hence the various rip-off remakes like 'Monaurail (It's Not The Express)', which was a BT Express' 'Express', and 'Hot (I Need To Be Loved)' was a remake of David Bowie's 'Fame'.

I have to clarify 'There Was A Time'. It was taken from the Live At The Apollo 2 performance. The lyric in 'Little Groove Maker' is 'hey hey, I feel alright one time' then bang on the drum. The new Deluxe Ed CD release of that concert puts everything together - Let Yourself Go/There Was A Time/I Feel Alright - back into its original 17 minute plus length! At least, that's what the Amazon write-up says.

Disco Funk

[originalbigm]

Remix your reading it wrong.Again let's address the context of the claim The Original Discoman.JB never said originator of the disco sound but "The Original Discoman" .I think the general consensus on this website is that the Disco era can basically defined as 1970-1979.Now take the formative years 1970-1974 and list for me how many Issac Hayes tunes would be floor jammers and compare it to how many JB tunes would be floor jammers. Don't forget you need to consider other artists he wrote for,performed with and produced such as The JB's and Lyn Collins.In that time period I would suggest that "Shaft" was the only floor jammer.As compared to at least a dozen or more JB numbers. Both artists were formulaic in their sound but defiantely JB qualifies as the most danceable. I think the claim is justified. IMHO

[remicks]

*****

I'll agree to the title of "Original NON -Disco Man" :P

..... James Brown may have had them on the floor in the earliest of the 70's ... but that was for the crowd stilll groovin' on the funk sounds carried over from the sixties ...
As disco continued to define itself ..... it displaced that sound .
Unlike many upcoming funksters ... James Brown resisted and dug in deeper into his established sound ... which worked for awhile ...

But the times were a changing ....

So that meanwhile .... everything fresh and ground breaking coming from the Isaac Hayes camp was capturing the imagination of the music innovators of that same early seventies period ..... They sucked up its sweetness like jasmine nectar ...... ( the sweetness was the weakness ... ) The original sounds , styles, and attitudes Isaac was introducing to music would then become the sound of Disco ( with a captal "D" ) ...

This sound was the new sound that then overrode and left behind a defiant non-disco ...... James Brown ....


__________________

.I think the general consensus on this website is that the Disco era can basically defined as 1970-1979.

I didn't know about this consensus OBM ..... not sure I agree ..... but ... if I did .... hmmmm .... 1970 .....what happens in 1970 ... aha ! ..... Isaac Hayes!!

Now take the formative years 1970-1974

1970 to 1974 .... aha again!! ... more Isaac Hayes !! 8)

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[QUINNY]

I'd bet a dollar to a cent that Isaac Hayes was bought by middle aged reprobates more than hip teenagers and apart from the fact that much of his output in the early '70s had strings, I really don't see any connection ro Disco whatsoever. He was never anything more than lounge music by the '70s and he hardly made a mark on the Disco scene. Ike suffered in exactly the same way as James Brown in that both of them were unable (or unwilling) to fully embrace the Disco sound. He was already a has been by the time Disco really took off, just like James Brown.
However, Ike's best songs were recorded in the mid to late '60s, whereas James Brown's best toons were most definitely in the early to mid '70s.