Isaac Hayes : Don't Shaft

[Disco Funk]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

Did I mention Sexy, Sexy, Sexy before? A pure attempt at Disco by JB that scored on the UK dance floors in 1973!! If anything this was way ahead of its time 'cos it featured sizzling hi hat, something I don't recall hearing from JB before it. If anything, it had DJs wondering what the hell the man was doing, as it didn't have a groove like any previous outing he'd done or anything much else doing the disco rounds at the time (except maybe Tribe's Koke).

I took another listen to it, and I remember it now from listening to all my JB stuff last week. Sexy Sexy Sexy was an interesting track from '73. In fact, the song was interesting when it was first released in '66 - as Money Won't Change You. Yup. James re-recorded that track, even keeping the same drum pattern (snare hits on every beat; "four on the top"?). I wonder if anyone at the time realized this?! I guess then you could really say James invented disco back in '66! ;)

Disco Funk

[QUINNY]

Originally Posted by Disco Funk

I took another listen to it, and I remember it now from listening to all my JB stuff last week. Sexy Sexy Sexy was an interesting track from '73. In fact, the song was interesting when it was first released in '66 - as Money Won't Change You. Yup. James re-recorded that track, even keeping the same drum pattern (snare hits on every beat; "four on the top"?). I wonder if anyone at the time realized this?! I guess then you could really say James invented disco back in '66! ;)Disco Funk

I never realised Sexy was a remodelling job, as I wasn't really into JB back in '66 and I've never re-visited his stuff since I played 'em BITD. Sexy just literally popped into my mind when I was reading the updates on this thread. I doubt if I played it much once it was considered 'old', but it certainly got heavy rotation when it was hot. When I look back, we played some amazing tracks in the early - mid '70s. Such diversity, that it would come across as almost riculous.

[Disco Funk]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

When I look back, we played some amazing tracks in the early - mid '70s. Such diversity, that it would come across as almost riculous.

Which isn't a bad thing. I wonder if any DJ recorded his/her set from the early 70s, pre-disco? I'm guessing the bpms weren't matched up, but they were kept relatively consistent? i.e. no alternating slow and fast songs?

Disco Funk

[remicks]

Originally Posted by FranceJoliFan

I appreciate James Brown's influence. But if we're talking about out-and-out disco songs of the era, James Brown never had a "Don't Let Go" moment like Isaac Hayes. That was a true disco song. That's where Hayes used all his 1970's r&b influences, and refined them into a true disco classic. (And he gets extra points for producing Linda Clifford's "Shoot Your Best Shot.")

.

I think one of the things that makes this whole argument a little harder to illustrate outright is that neither Isaac Hayes nor James Brown took their styles and used them to become disco superstars. Both struggled to score big. This discussion was never supposed to be about that anyway : about who did the best with their disco releases ... on that point their overall achievements are somewhat similar.

What I'm comparing is what these two were doing with music before the disco era and listening to their compositions leading up to it. Right away in Isaac Hayes music .... I hear disco ( the crtitical elements that happened to soul music that made it turn right onto this street called "DISCO" ) In James Brown's music I hear something different ... a sound that left turns onto the street called "FUNK". I maintain that once you're on "FUNK Street " you can stay on it and never reach the land of disco, which is what happened to James Brown ( and why his sound didn't go over too well in the discos whose sound was about something else)
When you go down Isaac's "DISCO " Street you will find studios all along the way incorporating his sounds ( strings , full bodied orchestra , passion themed songs, epic arrangements, female chorus, wah wah ) and pumping out a new sound : disco.


Back to your post FanOFFranceJoli:

I think what Isaac Hayes and James Brown were releasing by disco's peak is worth looking at though , because I agree FJF ... ..Isaac Hayes' DONT LET GO is one of disco's superior moments .... and it could be said that this is when Isaac finally said : "You want "disco" ? OK here's "disco" .... and pumped out this beauty ..... using the best of his disco skills .

James Brown .... at this same time is now wanting to declare himself "The Original Disco Man " ..... but unlike Isaac .... doesn't then just apply himself to make that case . In fact instead ( first time in JB's career ? ) he hands over the challenge to someone else entirely .....letting Brad Shapiro write , arrange, and produce his disco music. When does James Brown not get involved in the writing and producing of his own releases ?
To pull off this "discoman" persona .... James sought outside help ... letting someone else take charge leaving himself to play a more disco diva role .... showing up to sing his lines ... and that's about it, judging from the credits ...
The results from doing this I think are sometimes fantastic... but it can't be said that this was James Brown applying his own disco core ......
which can be said for Isaac with his "DON'T LET GO " production.


*****

NEONLIGHTS : I'm a complete amateur compared to the rest of you when it comes to James Brown and Isaac Hayes, but I'd have to say James all the way..

No disrespect to Isaac Hayes and his own considerable contributions (or to you either remicks )

None taken . This is an open forum about this idea and all input from all angles is readily welcomed ...
There are no "experts" on this stuff .... we're all equally impassioned about this music and all have valid ears with which to form opinions.

I'm still discovering the music of James Brown and Isaac Hayes and as I get to know Brown's music more I possibly could even do a 180 * .... who knows . Hasn't happened yet though and I've listened to quite a bit.... (not all 178 singles yet though )
I can only say that when I casually began checking out Isaac Hayes stuff my eyes ( ears ? ) opened wide and my immediate (and unexpected) reaction was : "AHA! Here it comes : DISCO! " .


*****

[originalbigm]

Originally Posted by remicks

I think one of the things that makes this whole argument a little harder to illustrate outright is that neither Isaac Hayes nor James Brown took their styles and used them to become disco superstars. Both struggled to score big. This discussion was never supposed to be about that anyway : about who did the best with their disco releases ... on that point their overall achievements are somewhat similar.

What I'm comparing is what these two were doing with music before the disco era and listening to their compositions leading up to it. Right away in Isaac Hayes music .... I hear disco ( the crtitical elements that happened to soul music that made it turn right onto this street called "DISCO" ) In James Brown's music I hear something different ... a sound that left turns onto the street called "FUNK". I maintain that once you're on "FUNK Street " you can stay on it and never reach the land of disco, which is what happened to James Brown ( and why his sound didn't go over too well in the discos whose sound was about something else)
When you go down Isaac's "DISCO " Street you will find studios all along the way incorporating his sounds ( strings , full bodied orchestra , passion themed songs, epic arrangements, female chorus, wah wah ) and pumping out a new sound : disco.


Back to your post FanOFFranceJoli:

I think what Isaac Hayes and James Brown were releasing by disco's peak is worth looking at though , because I agree FJF ... ..Isaac Hayes' DONT LET GO is one of disco's superior moments .... and it could be said that this is when Isaac finally said : "You want "disco" ? OK here's "disco" .... and pumped out this beauty ..... using the best of his disco skills .

James Brown .... at this same time is now wanting to declare himself "The Original Disco Man " ..... but unlike Isaac .... doesn't then just apply himself to make that case . In fact instead ( first time in JB's career ? ) he hands over the challenge to someone else entirely .....letting Brad Shapiro write , arrange, and produce his disco music. When does James Brown not get involved in the writing and producing of his own releases ?
To pull off this "discoman" persona .... James sought outside help ... letting someone else take charge leaving himself to play a more disco diva role .... showing up to sing his lines ... and that's about it, judging from the credits ...
The results from doing this I think are sometimes fantastic... but it can't be said that this was James Brown applying his own disco core ......
which can be said for Isaac with his "DON'T LET GO " production.


*****


None taken . This is an open forum about this idea and all input from all angles is readily welcomed ...
There are no "experts" on this stuff .... we're all equally impassioned about this music and all have valid ears with which to form opinions.

I'm still discovering the music of James Brown and Isaac Hayes and as I get to know Brown's music more I possibly could even do a 180 * .... who knows . Hasn't happened yet though and I've listened to quite a bit.... (not all 178 singles yet though )
I can only say that when I casually began checking out Isaac Hayes stuff my eyes ( ears ? ) opened wide and my immediate (and unexpected) reaction was : "AHA! Here it comes : DISCO! " .


*****

Certainly you don't think that offering a disco cover of someone else's song (Don't Let Go was originally a Roy Hamilton song from the late 50's early 60's) his claim to "originality".
Let's exam the output and Billboard placement of LP's offered by these two during the early formative years of disco say 1970- 1975 because arguing about songs put forth in the latter half of the disco era does not IMHO qualify them as a "original"

Issac Hayes

LP's - To Be Continued - 1970
#1 Black albums
#11 Pop albums

The Issac Hayes Movement-1970
#1 Black Albums
# 8 Pop Albums

[originalbigm]

Originally Posted by remicks

I think one of the things that makes this whole argument a little harder to illustrate outright is that neither Isaac Hayes nor James Brown took their styles and used them to become disco superstars. Both struggled to score big. This discussion was never supposed to be about that anyway : about who did the best with their disco releases ... on that point their overall achievements are somewhat similar.

What I'm comparing is what these two were doing with music before the disco era and listening to their compositions leading up to it. Right away in Isaac Hayes music .... I hear disco ( the crtitical elements that happened to soul music that made it turn right onto this street called "DISCO" ) In James Brown's music I hear something different ... a sound that left turns onto the street called "FUNK". I maintain that once you're on "FUNK Street " you can stay on it and never reach the land of disco, which is what happened to James Brown ( and why his sound didn't go over too well in the discos whose sound was about something else)
When you go down Isaac's "DISCO " Street you will find studios all along the way incorporating his sounds ( strings , full bodied orchestra , passion themed songs, epic arrangements, female chorus, wah wah ) and pumping out a new sound : disco.


Back to your post FanOFFranceJoli:

I think what Isaac Hayes and James Brown were releasing by disco's peak is worth looking at though , because I agree FJF ... ..Isaac Hayes' DONT LET GO is one of disco's superior moments .... and it could be said that this is when Isaac finally said : "You want "disco" ? OK here's "disco" .... and pumped out this beauty ..... using the best of his disco skills .

James Brown .... at this same time is now wanting to declare himself "The Original Disco Man " ..... but unlike Isaac .... doesn't then just apply himself to make that case . In fact instead ( first time in JB's career ? ) he hands over the challenge to someone else entirely .....letting Brad Shapiro write , arrange, and produce his disco music. When does James Brown not get involved in the writing and producing of his own releases ?
To pull off this "discoman" persona .... James sought outside help ... letting someone else take charge leaving himself to play a more disco diva role .... showing up to sing his lines ... and that's about it, judging from the credits ...
The results from doing this I think are sometimes fantastic... but it can't be said that this was James Brown applying his own disco core ......
which can be said for Isaac with his "DON'T LET GO " production.


*****


None taken . This is an open forum about this idea and all input from all angles is readily welcomed ...
There are no "experts" on this stuff .... we're all equally impassioned about this music and all have valid ears with which to form opinions.

I'm still discovering the music of James Brown and Isaac Hayes and as I get to know Brown's music more I possibly could even do a 180 * .... who knows . Hasn't happened yet though and I've listened to quite a bit.... (not all 178 singles yet though )
I can only say that when I casually began checking out Isaac Hayes stuff my eyes ( ears ? ) opened wide and my immediate (and unexpected) reaction was : "AHA! Here it comes : DISCO! " .


*****

Certainly you don't think that offering a disco cover of someone else's song (Don't Let Go was originally a Roy Hamilton song from the late 50's early 60's) justifies claim to "originality".Especially when it came out in disco's final year before it's demise.
Let's exam the output and Billboard placement of music offered by these two during the early formative years of disco say 1970- 1975 because arguing about songs put forth in the latter half of the disco era does not IMHO qualify them as "original".Both these individuals were contributing to the music scene long before this.

Issac Hayes

LP's -

To Be Continued - 1970
#1 Black albums
#11 Pop albums

The Issac Hayes Movement-1970
#1 Black Albums
# 8 Pop Albums

Black Moses-1971
#1 Black Albums
# 10 Pop Albums

Up to this point there were not many singles other than the slow grooves "Walk On By" and "Never Can Say Goodbye" that discoers were grooving to.In fact what Issac Hayes was establishing himself as was an excellent "original" arranger of other people's tunes.

Theme from Shaft - 1971
#1 Black Albums
#1 Pop Albums

It was this soundtrack which he wrote,arranged and produced which gave us his first major contribution to the disco crowd.However apart from the title track there was little else to feast on.

Joy -1973
#2 Black Albums
#16 Pop Albums
Again one title track that I would suggest had limited response on the disco scene.

Three albums followed which did little to contribute to the disco or pop scene
1973's Live at The Sahara,Tahoe,1974's Tough Guys and Truck Turner

James Brown

Singles Output-
1970: "Sex Machine" (Part 1)" (R&B #2, U.S. #15, UK #32)
1970: "It’s A New Day" - Part 1 & Part 2 (U.S. #32)
1970: "Super Bad" - Part 1 & Part 2 (R&B #1, U.S. #13)
1971: "Escape-ism" - Part 1 (R&B #6, U.S. #35)
1971: "Get Up, Get Into It, Get Involved" - Pt. 1 (R&B #4, U.S. #34)
1971: "Hot Pants " – Part 1 (R&B #1, U.S. #15)
1971: "I’m A Greedy Man" - Part I (R&B #7, U.S. #35)
1971: "Make It Funky" - Part 1 (R&B #1, U.S. #22)
1971: "Soul Power" - Pt. 1 (R&B #3, U.S. #29, UK #78)
1972: "Get On The Good Foot" - Part 1 (R&B #1, U.S. #18)
1972: "I Got A Bag Of My Own" (U.S. #44)
1972: "Talking Loud And Saying Nothing" - Part I (R&B #1, U.S. #27)
1973: "I Got A Bag Of My Own" (R&B #3)
1973: "I Got Ants In My Pants (and I Want to Dance)" - Pt 1 (U.S.#27)
1973: "Sexy, Sexy, Sexy" (R&B #6, U.S. #50)
1973: "Think" (R&B #15, U.S. #77)
1974: "Coldblooded" (U.S. #44)
1974: "Funky President" (People It’s Bad)" (R&B #4, U.S. #44)
1974: "My Thang" (R&B #1, U.S. #29)
1974: "Papa Don’t Take No Mess" - Part I (R&B #1, U.S. #31)
1974: "Stoned To The Bone" - Part 1 (R&B #4, U.S. #58)
1974: "The Payback" - Part I (R&B #1, U.S. #26)
1975: "Hustle!!!" (Dead On It)" (R&B #11)

Based on the fact that Issac Hayes contributed two maybe three tunes to the disco dance scene in the years 1970-1975,compared to 23 that James Brown contributed, I think the facts speak for themselves.I also did not include here the other artists like The JB's and Lyn Collins all of who were written for and produced by James Brown during this time period.Tunes such as Gimme Some More,Mama Feelgood & Rock Me Again.Also people were getting down with James Brown long before the disco era.Let's see Papa's Gotta Brand New Bag,Cold Sweat,The Popcorn etc.

Issac Hayes is more suited to the label outstanding arranger and interpreter but the nod still goes to James Brown as the original discoman. He referenced this I believe on the facts as above not that he created the disco sound of lush orchestration and strings,which of course he did not,but the fact that in discos formative years people were grooving to his music almost relentlessly.I think once again you fail to interpret what James Brown was referring to when he made that statement.

As far as lush orchestration & string arrangements being a keystone of the disco sound then Mr. Hayes has in fact tougher competition in that regard.I would concede that in fact Gamble & Huff through their enormous body of work with MFSB and the Philly artists could easily lay claim to the title originators/refiners of the disco sound as well as Barry White.

While I certainly respect Issac Hayes contributions to music I always viewed him as an outstanding soul artist who didn't particularly bring the roof down on the disco scene apart from Shaft.And you may be right maybe he hasn't received enough credit as an originator of a particular disco style but that is another argument.There are many far more knowledgeable people in the professional ranks of the music industry that can enlighten us to where this credit lies.

Quote
"Ironically, Mr. Brown's rhythm-driven music had helped pave the way for the disco craze, though its mechanical beat was far different from the fluidity and subtly varied pulse of his music."

Quote
"Although James Brown fully earned the nickname "Godfather of Soul," he is also tremendously important to the history of pop music. He placed 99 songs on the chart in a 30 year time span. This amazing achievement puts James Brown within the top 10 of the list of all-time most successful pop artists. He holds the unfortunate record of the most charted pop hits ever without reaching #1."

A true original

The Oxford English Dictionary
adjective 1 existing from the beginning; first or earliest. 2 produced first-hand; not a copy. 3 inventive or novel.

PS. When it comes to some lush orchestration & strings I refer you to.It's a Man's Man's Man's World one of James Brown all time biggest hits.1966

[sirs]

LP _

ISAAC HAYES - JUICY FRUITS ( DISCO FREAK ) _1976 - ABC

knows anyone this ?!

great stuff on it !!!

[remicks]

Originally Posted by originalbigm

James Brown

Singles Output-
1970: "Sex Machine" (Part 1)" (R&B #2, U.S. #15, UK #32)
1970: "It’s A New Day" - Part 1 & Part 2 (U.S. #32)
1970: "Super Bad" - Part 1 & Part 2 (R&B #1, U.S. #13)
1971: "Escape-ism" - Part 1 (R&B #6, U.S. #35)
1971: "Get Up, Get Into It, Get Involved" - Pt. 1 (R&B #4, U.S. #34)
1971: "Hot Pants " – Part 1 (R&B #1, U.S. #15)
1971: "I’m A Greedy Man" - Part I (R&B #7, U.S. #35)
1971: "Make It Funky" - Part 1 (R&B #1, U.S. #22)
1971: "Soul Power" - Pt. 1 (R&B #3, U.S. #29, UK #78)
1972: "Get On The Good Foot" - Part 1 (R&B #1, U.S. #18)
1972: "I Got A Bag Of My Own" (U.S. #44)
1972: "Talking Loud And Saying Nothing" - Part I (R&B #1, U.S. #27)
1973: "I Got A Bag Of My Own" (R&B #3)
1973: "I Got Ants In My Pants (and I Want to Dance)" - Pt 1 (U.S.#27)
1973: "Sexy, Sexy, Sexy" (R&B #6, U.S. #50)
1973: "Think" (R&B #15, U.S. #77)
1974: "Coldblooded" (U.S. #44)
1974: "Funky President" (People It’s Bad)" (R&B #4, U.S. #44)
1974: "My Thang" (R&B #1, U.S. #29)
1974: "Papa Don’t Take No Mess" - Part I (R&B #1, U.S. #31)
1974: "Stoned To The Bone" - Part 1 (R&B #4, U.S. #58)
1974: "The Payback" - Part I (R&B #1, U.S. #26)
1975: "Hustle!!!" (Dead On It)" (R&B #11)

Thanks for your excellent input as usual OBM Some good food for thought: always appreciated , ... and I do have some other thoughts .... but first this from reviewing James' 70's hits :

No doubt James Brown was peaking right about then ... just look at that impressive list and how well each charted . In the first half of the seventies there was still a big appetite for JB's brand of soul music ... and James Brown had it down good. This is pure funk at it's funkiest.
But nonetheless
after reviewing samples of them .... there ain't a disco song to be found amongst the bunch.... (well maybe Get Up, Get Into It, And Get Involved is close to getting there ... simplified BT Express .... ) ....

Amazon.com: Make It Funky - The Big Payback: 1971-1975: Music: James Brown

Put it this way .... if I were a novice of disco and wanted to learn more ... and I went into a music store and asked the clerk to give me something representing the roots of disco .... or examples of early disco .... or disco-ish music from the early seventies .... and he offered as such this body of songs by James Brown ..... once I got it home and listened to it ... I'd be flat out pissed ... and I'd be back there first thing the next morning wanting my money back !


*****

[originalbigm]

Originally Posted by remicks

Thanks for your excellent input as usual OBM Some good food for thought: always appreciated , ... and I do have some other thoughts .... but first this from reviewing James' 70's hits :

No doubt James Brown was peaking right about then ... just look at that impressive list and how well each charted . In the first half of the seventies there was still a big appetite for JB's brand of soul music ... and James Brown had it down good. This is pure funk at it's funkiest.
But nonetheless
after reviewing samples of them .... there ain't a disco song to be found amongst the bunch.... (well maybe Get Up, Get Into It, And Get Involved is close to getting there ... simplified BT Express .... ) ....

Amazon.com: Make It Funky - The Big Payback: 1971-1975: Music: James Brown

Put it this way .... if I were a novice of disco and wanted to learn more ... and I went into a music store and asked the clerk to give me something representing the roots of disco .... or examples of early disco .... or disco-ish music from the early seventies .... and he offered as such this body of songs by James Brown ..... once I got it home and listened to it ... I'd be flat out pissed ... and I'd be back there first thing the next morning wanting my money back !


*****

Agreed based on what your expectations may be.However expectations and realities can be completely different.If you wish to raise the point of roots and examples of early disco then i refer you to the following quotes.

"The foundations of funk music had been laid in the second half of the 1960s by James Brown, the MG's, Sly & The Family Stone, the Meters, Dyke & The Blazers, etc. The syncopated polyrhythm, the groovey bass line, the metallic guitar timbre, the falsetto wail were all introduced in the 1960s. However, funk music had to wait until the age of re-alignment before it became a genre on its own. Rare Earth, with Get Ready (1970) and I Just Want To Celebrate (1971), War, with Spill The Wine (1970) and The World Is A Ghetto (1972), and the Jackson Five (featuring the young Michael Jackson), with I Want You Back (1970), ABC (1970), The Love You Save (1970) and Berry Gordy's I'll Be There (1970), took it to the top of the charts, while starting a dance mania that had not been seen since the twist of the early 1960s.Discos opened just to play funk music"

"Funk music opened the doors to the disco subculture. There was a reaction, particularly among New York's gays, to rock music's domination of the airwaves. People still wanted to dance, but the counterculture had demonized dance music. Funk music served an audience that was tired of guitar solos and boogie rhythms. Black people used to organize dance parties. Persecuted by the public opinion and by puritan sects, gays had created social islands within the metropolis. Their night clubs were as segregated as the black churches in the 1950s. Gays took the same idea of the black dance parties and used the same music for their parties, that were staged in those private clubs, soon to be known as "discos". Discos became so successful that they transformed rapidly from marginalized, discriminated and underground phenomenon to a chic craze for the yuppies
"
The History of Rock Music - The Seventies

The author of this essay articulates well the events and milestones of the evolution of disco music.Clearly it's origins and roots begin with funk and R&B.Any record clerk that would not include any of these in his examples of early disco music would certainly being doing a disservice to the genre and obviously knows little about it's origins.

Issac Hayes was not the master architect of disco and his contributions were minimal. Once again based on the established fact that funk was the root origin of disco music then I must defer to the inimitable Mr.Brown in his assertion of "the original disco man" Sorry
I'm sure that any of the DJ's in this forum who were getting their feet wet during the early years can attest to what genres where keeping their dance floors full. It may be of interest to a lot of of the younger crowd as to what some of these DJ's playlists comprised of BITD Let's say pre Rock Me Baby and Rock The Boat.Don't forget also that we were still rehashing tunes that were a year or two old in some cases because we were not getting the output or turnover of records that came in the mid to latter years of the decade.There were no record pools or company A&R men making the rounds of early discos.In most cases the DJ was responsible for reviewing and selecting tunes for his club and back in the early seventies the flavour of the day was danceable funk,soul and R&B.We never refered to it as "disco music" it was funk,soul or R&B.

A few examples of what I was playing as "disco music" back in 1972-73

A Man Size Job-Denise Lasalle
Good Foot - James Brown
I Got Ants In My Pants -James Brown
A Mother For My Children - The Whispers
Ain't Nothin You Can Do -Bobby Bland
I Know You Got Soul - Bobby Byrd
Finder's Keepers-Chairman Of The Board
Gimme Some More - The JB's
I Got A Bag Of My Own -James Brown
If You Want Me Stay - Sly & The Family Stone
Scorpio - Dennis Coffey
Superstition-Stevie Wonder
There It Is -James Brown
Brother Louie-The Stories
Blackbyrd - Donald Byrd
Could It Be I'm Falling In Love -The Spinners
Dance To The Music - The Hypnotics
Get That Ball - Patsy Gallant
I'll Always Love My Mama-The Intruders
I'm a Greedy Man -James Brown
Funky Stuff - Kool & The Gang
Fencewalk -Mandrill
Dirty Old Man -The Three Degrees
Make It Funky -James Brown
Bad Luck-Harold Melvin & The Bluenotes
That Lady -Isley Bros.
Soul Makossa - Manu Dibango
Jungle Fever - The Chakachas
Think -James Brown
Without You In My Life- Tyrone Davis
Stoned Out Of My Mind-The Chi-Lites

[remicks]

Originally Posted by originalbigm

We never refered to it as "disco music" it was funk,soul or R&B.

I'd say that was because it just wasn't quite there yet ..... disco music.

I see the clear indentifiable beginnings of it on certain songs you played OBM .....and interestingly its only in ones NOT by James Brown .
In fact I might argue that it's the James Brown cuts at this critical point holding the genre back . Were I in a competing club back then and had I played most from your list but excluded the James Brown stuff ... my playlist would likely be looked upon as more true to disco ....than your list containing James Brown .....imo....




*****

[Disco Funk]

Originally Posted by remicks

Were I in a competing club back then and had I played most from your list but excluded the James Brown stuff ... my playlist would likely be looked upon as more true to disco ....than your list containing James Brown .....imo....
*****

Hindsight is 20/20 remicks. You can easily say that now because you already know where disco went and what you liked about what it became, but back in '72, I think you would have been all over James Brown. I mean, let's use the music of today as an example. Do you know where it's going right now? Which artists putting out dance records today will have been the foundations of a popular form of music that will evolve in the next several years? I can't say that I know. It may be more rock oriented, it may be more funk oriented. It may be rap based - we just don't know.

Just looking at the playlist from that time, the groove is pretty consistent if you are familiar with the songs, although Bad Luck came out in '75. Some of those artists are not familiar to me, so I am intrigued as to how their songs sounded! Thanks for posting that interesting list.

Disco Funk

[originalbigm]

Originally Posted by Disco Funk

Hindsight is 20/20 remicks. You can easily say that now because you already know where disco went and what you liked about what it became, but back in '72, I think you would have been all over James Brown. I mean, let's use the music of today as an example. Do you know where it's going right now? Which artists putting out dance records today will have been the foundations of a popular form of music that will evolve in the next several years? I can't say that I know. It may be more rock oriented, it may be more funk oriented. It may be rap based - we just don't know.

Just looking at the playlist from that time, the groove is pretty consistent if you are familiar with the songs, although Bad Luck came out in '75. Some of those artists are not familiar to me, so I am intrigued as to how their songs sounded! Thanks for posting that interesting list.

Disco Funk

Thanks for the correction on Bad Luck I meant to post The Love I Lost (1973) from the album Black & Blue which if there was a moment in time when a song struck me as moving in a new direction it was this one. One only needs to listen to the opening of this tune to be struck by it's driving uptempo,fresh & brisk grandioseness (is there such a word) in it's 4/4 delivery.Surprisingly it was not well received at first since it was so new in it's style and delivery but it certainly previewed the beginning of a new direction in "disco" music spearheaded by the likes of Gamble& Huff and Barry White.
Disco Funk I wholeheartedly agree with you.At that time and place we were playing the music that our party goers were demanding.The availability of music that Remicks perceives as "discoish" was just beginning to appear and one would be hard pressed to keep the floor filled with that style of music.
I don't know how many DJ's on this board were spinning at that time period apart from Quinny but from his posts I can tell that he comes from the same school of thought.Funk and R&B were the predominant genre of "disco" music back then and I wasn't forcing James Brown on anyone.They were demanding his music.Certainly to suggest that the absence of James Browns' music retarded the growth of the disco sound is foolish.Ifs,ands or buts can't change history.It's like trying to conjecture if Tom Moulton's engineer hadn't run out of 7" acetates at the time he wanted to make a test pressing of Al Downings' "I'll Be Holding On" would the 12" ever had been invented and if it had who, where and when might that have happened and what would it's effect been on disco.Let's deal with facts and realities not what ifs. The original assertion by Remicks was that Issac Hayes had more of a claim to the moniker "The Original Disco man" than James Brown.I as well as others have provided a plethora of factual evidence that supports James Browns position.I have seen little to support the case for Issac Hayes.

[QUINNY]

Remicks: Just consider yourself lucky NOT to have been flamed about 5 pages back, for your beligerent crustiness. I'd have been thrown offa the boards by now for causing sooo much aggro.

Pre-disco, a top 20 R&B chart position meant first class, bona fide dance music in most cases. Look how many James Brown had in that period. Unless Disco didn't partly evolve out of Funk, which it most certainly DID, how can you possibly argue that JB had less right to the monicker "original disco man" than Isaac Hayes? Impossible!

[remicks]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

Pre-disco, a top 20 R&B chart position meant first class, bona fide dance music in most cases. Look how many James Brown had in that period. Unless Disco didn't partly evolve out of Funk, which it most certainly DID, how can you possibly argue that JB had less right to the monicker "original disco man" than Isaac Hayes? Impossible!

Quinny you've continually interchanged the word "dance " and the word "disco" in this discussion . I've said all along ... yes people were no doubt dancing in the early seventies . Many of those sectors were no doubt dancing to James Brown ... just as they had been since the sixties . But dancing to funk does not automatically equal dancing to disco ... just as dancing to whatever in the early seventies does not automatically mean dancing to disco ... ( the square dancers in my high school never claimed so anyway !!! )
YES disco partly evolved out of funk ...but it wasn't ONLY funk ..or else we'd have just stuck with the term "funk" for the music all thru the 70's.( and as would have thereupon been befitting: stuck with the music of James Brown ) It wasn't just funk ... Disco was something else ... a hybrid requiring more.
James Brown was JUST funk ...which is why he fit in so well in the early seventies (funk's heyday) ... BUT which is also why he suddenly dropped like a lead sinker when disco overtook his sound by '74 '75 . As far as disco being rooted (largely) in funk ... funk/soul .... true enough .... which would include Isaac Hayes a key resident of Stax Records . Isaac's approach to the sound brought unto the funk scene some needed ingredients to guide it toward somewhere else ...

Remicks: Just consider yourself lucky NOT to have been flamed about 5 pages back, for your beligerent crustiness. I'd have been thrown offa the boards by now for causing sooo much aggro.

I don't understand ? I brought this topic up with the intention that thoughtful responses and counterpoints would ensue .. that a meaty topic to sink our teeth into would result .
I'm quite pleased with the provocative responses ... its given me lots to think about .... some fat to chew .... ...

It's clear that we've only scratched the surface of this topic .... I think my assertion is still valid ... haven't been convinced otherwise ... I just haven't done a successful job (yet) of presenting it ....

( ... by the end : all will succumb ) !!

******

[Disco Funk]

Hey Remicks,

I can't exactly remember what you said were the ingredients that Hayes brought to the music that would ultimately be known as 'disco'. Was it the use of strings? High bpms? He certainly didn't bring the funk into the music. His style was more soul, R&B. If disco was mainly about the strings, then you could argue that Hayes really just copied Gamble & Huff or Thom Bell because they were using a lot of strings on their mid-tempo and up-tempo tracks in the late 60s. Just check out the Delfonics music, as a prime example.

Personally, I think good disco had the funk injected into the stringy R&B, yet there are many good examples of disco that didn't have any strings at all, and were ALL funk. The only one that really comes to mind, and it may not be THE best example, is 'Makes You Blind' by The Glitter Band. No strings, but awesome disco, which would be more something JB would have done rather than Ike.

Isaac Hayes did to the occasional funky song, but his bread and butter was syrupy, usually Burt Bacharach covers, love songs.

Disco Funk