Isaac Hayes : Don't Shaft

[remicks]

*****

Originally Posted by Disco Funk

But Disco = Dance Music. It's funky dance music, as opposed to other genres of music that are danceable at higher bpms, like country, or swing, or even polka. It's not music for people to sit down and listen to, even though many songs had pensive lyrics, like a lot of the philly stuff. When disco plays, its music for shaking your booty. What DJ wants to play to a crowd at a club where people are sitting at tables and not dancing? So, disco is dance music, and James Brown is the original disco man for that reason. :)

Disco Funk

You're just trying to give me a migraine ain't ya !!!! :p:p:p

OK class .... you aren't paying attention ... so
OK .... let's play it this way .... IF James Brown is the original discoman ... because of his danceable funk grooves .....then why isn't the disco era considered to have begun in the mid to late 60's ... when he was a funkin' & a dancin' at his prime ..... HMMMMM ?????

*****

[originalbigm]

:razz: James Brown (born James Joseph Brown, Jr. on May 3, 1933 in Barnwell, South Carolina) is an African-American entertainer, recognized as one of the most influential figures in 20th century music. As a prolific singer, songwriter, bandleader and record producer, Brown was a seminal force in the evolution of gospel and rhythm and blues into soul and funk. He has also left his mark on numerous other musical genres, including rock, jazz, reggae, disco, dance and electronic music, and, most famously, hip-hop music.

;) 1962
James Brown: Live at the Apollo

The first million-selling r'n'b album, and a dynamic snapshot of the greatest soul act ever to tread the boards. Brown's influence on modern music is immeasurable, beginning with his impact on Sixties Mod groups and continuing apace with his presence in contemporary urban music.

8) In the mid to late '60s James Brown seemed to have a new bit every month, often based around a new dance step. In 1969 he placed nine songs on the charts, five of thern variations on the same dance"The Popcorn," "Mother Popcorn," "Lowdown Popcorn," "Let A Man Come In And Do The Popcorn (Part 1),""Let A Man Come In And Do The Popcorn (Part 11)." But as Robert Palmer wrote in lhe Rolling Stone Illustrated History OfRock & Roll. "Pervasive as Brown's influence was during the '60s, he shaped the music of the '70s even more profoundly. The chattering choke rhythm guitars, broken bass patterns, explosive horn bures, onechord drones, and evangelical vocal discourses he introduced during the mid'60s have become the linguafranca [universal language] of contemporary black pop, the heartbeat of the discotheques, and a primary ingredient in such farflung musical syntheses as Jamaican reggae and Nigerian Afro-beat."

:p The gospel and blues structure of his early records gave way to rhythmic vocals and a complex funk sound. His innovations during this period had a profound influence on popular music styles around the world, including funk, rock, Afro-pop, disco and eventually rap.

:???: At around the time of "Mother Popcorn" in 1969, James Brown began to concern himself more and more exclusively with rhythmic distinctions, thus leaving himself ever more open to the all-sounds-[the]-same complaints he'd always been subject to. Having enjoyed his interracial []e, he quickly faded from the consciousness of most white people. But between 1969 and 1971, while whites danced [(if at] all) to Creedence and the Stones and maybe Memphis soul (Motown was out [then], Brown scored 17--17 in three years![--]top-10 r&b hits that changed black dancing and paved the way to disco.

What was Ike doing at this time?Hmmmmm:roll:

Get Up Offa That Thing (7/76) "I'm Black, I'm Back?" is how JB begins the commercial message on the jacket, and the title track is his biggest single in a year and a half. "I can see the disco now," he emphasizes, and even the blues and the ballad cultivate a groove designed to reintroduce him to that alien world he founded.

The Original Disco Man (6/79) In which Brown relinquishes the profit-taking ego gratification of writing and producing everything himself. Those credits go to Brad Shapiro, Millie Jackson's helpmate, who thank god is no disco man himself. Sure he likes disco tricks--synthesized sound effects, hooky female chorus, bass drum pulse--but he loves what made JB, well, the original disco man: hard-driving, slightly Latinized funk patterns against the rough rap power of that amazing voice, which may have lost expressiveness but definitely retains its sense of rhythm. Plus: disco disc of the year, "It's Too Funky in Here."

:p Funk music opened the doors to the disco subculture. There was a reaction, particularly among New York's gays, to rock music's domination of the airwaves. People still wanted to dance, but the counterculture had demonized dance music. Funk music served an audience that was tired of guitar solos and boogie rhythms. Black people used to organize dance parties. Persecuted by the public opinion and by puritan sects, gays had created social islands within the metropolis. Their night clubs were as segregated as the black churches in the 1950s. Gays took the same idea of the black dance parties and used the same music for their parties, that were staged in those private clubs, soon to be known as "discos". Discos became so successful that they transformed rapidly from marginalized, discriminated and underground phenomenon to a chic craze for the yuppies.

:???: I can recall going to Disco's in the early 70's. Long before "that stupid movie" came out in 1976. These discos that I went to were quite a bit differnt than the one depicted in "that stupid movie".
They were usually located in inner city neighborhoods and were either converted warehouse facilities, abandoned resturants and the like. People would show up to these places at around 10 pm or so to dance & mingle. We called them "discos" but another name for them might be "Funk House" !!...........they were very different kinds of places than what younger people today might think of as "disco". People would come dressed in "full funk regalia"...(afro's, 'nik nik' shirts, applejacks, etc) and dance/mingle till the wee hours of the morning.

8) The decade had started out with the music of Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone, James Brown, Miles Davis, Funkadelic and others completely revolutionizing Black music by somehow blending together jazz, blues, soul & rock n’ roll and inventing something that today we call FUNK. Later in the decade this tradition was carried forward by artists such as Weather Report, Ronnie Laws, Ohio Players, Earth Wind and Fire, Parliment, Gil Scott Heron and many others. This music was not just a "deep groove", it also made the listener think about their lives and the world around them. It embraced not only the concept of being Black in Amerika, but also made the connection to the Caribbean, Afrika and elsewhere. And it was all positive, not "anti white", but "pro black". This force was so powerful in fact that even white people caught the "groove". White people catching this groove manifested itself in the form of Disco.

Today some people look back at disco and either laugh at t or seek to discredit it for various reasons, such as it’s excesses . Those people are DEAD WRONG. Today we can look back at disco and place it in the proper perspective. Clearly disco is an extension of FUNK, not just as far as the musical groove, but also as a "cultural/social/political "groove" of unity.

Disco s an up-tempo style of dance music that originated in the early 1970s. It's musical roots are mainly funk and soul music and it was popular originally with gay and black audiences in large U.S. cities.<br><br><br>

[remicks]

*****

How wonderful to see someone put a little effort into this :D:D

From where is this taken OBM ???? Of whom are we referring input on this ??

Originally Posted by originalbigm

:razz: James Brown (born James Joseph Brown, Jr. on May 3, 1933 in Barnwell, South Carolina) is an African-American entertainer, recognized as one of the most influential figures in 20th century music. As a prolific singer, songwriter, bandleader and record producer, Brown was a seminal force in the evolution of gospel and rhythm and blues into soul and funk. He has also left his mark on numerous other musical genres, including rock, jazz, reggae, disco, dance and electronic music, and, most famously, hip-hop music.

ROCK, JAZZ, REGGAE, DISCO ,DANCE, ELECTRONIC, HIP-HOP, Boy he's original all over the place isn't he !!8)

;) 1962
James Brown: Live at the Apollo

The first million-selling r'n'b album, and a dynamic snapshot of the greatest soul act ever to tread the boards. Brown's influence on modern music is immeasurable, beginning with his impact on Sixties Mod groups and continuing apace with his presence in contemporary urban music.

....Got it. :D.....so he's also the original sixties Modman , and the original contemporary urban musicman .....Let's proceed

8) In the mid to late '60s James Brown seemed to have a new bit every month, often based around a new dance step. In 1969 he placed nine songs on the charts, five of thern variations on the same dance"The Popcorn," "Mother Popcorn," "Lowdown Popcorn," "Let A Man Come In And Do The Popcorn (Part 1),""Let A Man Come In And Do The Popcorn (Part 11)." But as Robert Palmer wrote in lhe Rolling Stone Illustrated History OfRock &amp; Roll. "Pervasive as Brown's influence was during the '60s, he shaped the music of the '70s even more profoundly. The chattering choke rhythm guitars, broken bass patterns, explosive horn bures, onechord drones, and evangelical vocal discourses he introduced during the mid'60s have become the linguafranca [universal language] of contemporary black pop, the heartbeat of the discotheques, and a primary ingredient in such farflung musical syntheses as Jamaican reggae and Nigerian Afro-beat."

Gosh he was also the original black popman , the original Jamaican reggaeman and the original Nigerian Afro-beat man !!!
dang ....let's just call him the original musicman period and be done wth it !!!:p

The gospel and blues structure of his early records gave way to rhythmic vocals and a complex funk sound. His innovations during this period had a profound influence on popular music styles around the world, including funk, rock, Afro-pop, disco and eventually rap.

Stack 'em up. He was the :
original funkman
original rockman
original Afro-popman
original discoman
original rapman
if only he'd done some grunge .... he'd have had a clean sweep !!!!:D

:???:

At around the time of "Mother Popcorn" in 1969, James Brown began to concern himself more and more exclusively with rhythmic distinctions, thus leaving himself ever more open to the all-sounds-[the]-same complaints he'd always been subject to. Having enjoyed his interracial []e, he quickly faded from the consciousness of most white people. But between 1969 and 1971, while whites danced [(if at] all) to Creedence and the Stones and maybe Memphis soul (Motown was out [then], Brown scored 17--17 in three years![--]top-10 r&amp;b hits that changed black dancing and paved the way to disco.

Now, this quote is good .... "paved the way to disco" .... sounds familiar ..... ( good god ....this isn't Rolling Stone is it !! :p)

Get Up Offa That Thing (7/76) "I'm Black, I'm Back?" is how JB begins the commercial message on the jacket, and the title track is his biggest single in a year and a half. "I can see the disco now," he emphasizes, and even the blues and the ballad cultivate a groove designed to reintroduce him to that alien world he founded.

.

."I can see the disco now ", and even the blues and the ballad cultivate a groove ....

(??? what? .... this don't make no sense !!! )
..

... cultivate a groove to reintroduce him to that ALIEN world he founded

.... so according to this expert source : disco was an alien world to James Brown !!! ...and yet....and yet its an alien world he " founded" !!! :p:p:p uh-huh........

The Original Disco Man (6/79) In which Brown relinquishes the profit-taking ego gratification of writing and producing everything himself. Those credits go to Brad Shapiro, Millie Jackson's helpmate, who thank god is no disco man himself. Sure he likes disco tricks--synthesized sound effects, hooky female chorus, bass drum pulse--but he loves what made JB, well, the original disco man: hard-driving, slightly Latinized funk patterns against the rough rap power of that amazing voice, which may have lost expressiveness but definitely retains its sense of rhythm

. What a bunch of gobbly goop !!! :p:p

Plus: disco disc of the year, "It's Too Funky in Here."

( really ..... disco disk of the year???? :oops::lol::lol:)

and .....whoops.... HOLD IT !!!! :-o:evil::evil: stop the music !!!!!
what's this ??? What's this "thank god" comment about someone not being disco !!!! Why is this author THANKING GOD Shapiro wasn't a "DISCOMAN "
:p and ...

"sure he likes disco tricks --- synthesized sound effects , hooky female choruses, and bass drum pulse ...

bass drum pulse is a disco "trick " ?? :p:p female choruses ..a "disco trick" ???:p
Ok, this is written by some no-nothing anti -disco asshole .
And , since they are written from within this anti-disco framework .... this person's opinions about disco and who originated it are therefore unqualified and the review of them ends here !!!!!
. :evil::evil::evil::evil: .................................................. ..:p



*****

[QUINNY]

Remicks: Do the honourable thing and admit defeat now.

[originalbigm]

http://www.towermusicfestival.co.uk/festival06/html/artists/index.htm<br><br>&nbsp;"The gospel and blues structure of his early records gave way to rhythmic vocals and a complex funk sound. His innovations during this period had a profound influence on popular music styles around the world, including funk, rock, Afro-pop, disco and eventually rap.":p<br><br>&nbsp;http://theliterarythug.blogspot.com/...g_archive.html <br><br>"But their most noxious lie they ever tell is the petite bourgeois myth that disco was somehow the peoples dance music. For if those who propagated that myth were hip enough to go musically uptown to check out P-Funk, Earth Wind and Fire, The Ohio players, War, and what Sly Stone, and James Brown did a few years earlier, they would have found the genuine populist dance music of the '70s."8)<br><br>&nbsp;http://www.funky-stuff.com/Nolen/bio.htm<br><br>&nbsp;"Jimmy Nolen was the founder of funk guitar," states bandleader Johnny Otis, "yet the very people who are influenced by him are not aware of it at all. He was a giant influence in American music." Nolen, who died of a heart attack at age 49 on December 18, 1983, played on several Otis sessions in the late '50s, including the bit "Willie And The Hand Jive," but developed his pervasive funk style during his 16 years with James Brown. Nolen was more than a stylistic innovator; until his death he remained the standard by which all other funk guitarists were measured. Although he was primarily a rhythm guitarist, the impact Nolen had on subsequent players was no less important or farreaching than the influence of rock/ R&amp;B innovators such as Chuck Berry, Jimi Hendrix, and B. B. King. His distinctive style of sixteenth note strumming and funky, choppy chord work (relying heavily on 7th and 9th chords) provided the foundation on which virtually all modern R&amp;B, funk, and disco guitar is based.<br><br>&nbsp;http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=3007<br><br>&nbsp;"His prolific career as a singer, songwriter and record producer has stretched across four decades and seen him leave his mark on an eclectic mix of musical genres from reggae to rock and disco to jazz."8) "James Brown's popularity began to decline in the mid-1970's,:oops: despite his influence on, and some say origination of, the disco movement, but the meteoric rise of hip-hop on the music scene in the 1980's opened new doors and exposed a younger generation of music lovers to his uniquely funky style of music."<br><br>&nbsp;http://arted.osu.edu/160/15_Intro.php <br><br>"Funk developed from soul music in the late 1960's as a number of musicians began to experiment with adding rock elements to their work. Sly Stone and James Brown are often considered the godfathers of funk - Brown's notion of funk was stripped down and spare, while Stone's was involved with acid rock and drew more from rock music. Both Brown and Stone influenced George Clinton, the leader of Parliament and Funkadelic, who added a healthy dose of fantasy and science fiction to his psychedelic blend of a deep bass line and instrumental breaks. Funk had a profound effect on the development of hip-hop and rap music in the 1980's and 1990's." "Disco is a simplified version of funk, began in the 1970's in New York City at African- American, Latin and Gay nightclubs. In these clubs, D.J.'s played steady non-stop dance music with a pronounced, thumping steady beat. Because no band was involved, the dancers were the center of attention."<br><br>&nbsp;http://www.wxyc.org/in/audible/online/last_days.html <br><br>"The Allmusic guide defines disco as a music that grew out of the soul and funk grooves of the early ‘70s while changing their formulas by valuing the beat over vocals and instrumentation, thereby giving way to a music that was made expressly for dancing at nightclubs."<br><br>&nbsp;http://www.dvdisc.co.uk/acatalog/Catalogue_James_Brown___Body_Heat_220.html<br><br> &nbsp;"New urban-based musicians are indebted to the raw funk embraced by the Godfather of Soul from soul to R&amp;B and hip-hop to disco, music has been heavily influenced by James Brown.";) And for my "Capper" http://www.daveyd.com/jamesbrownbdayarticle.html "When James Brown entered the scene all that changed. He delivered the drum front and center. Vincent noted that James Brown brought out a more prominent rhythmic foundation for the music and introduced the important concept of 'Hitting on the One'. James Brown focused his entire band including the complex horn, rhythm guitar and keyboard arrangements of his band mate Fred Wesley, Pee Wee Ellis and Nat Jones to 'deliver on the one'. James Brown punctuated his efforts by using his voice with his vintage grunts, groans and screams as a binding force which also drew everything 'on the one'. It seems so simple and commonplace today, but back then it was groundbreaking. Vincent who eloquently breaks this whole thing down in book 'The History of Funk' went on to add, that prior to James Brown most American music built upon the Blues tradition. After James Brown, American music built upon the tradition of the Funk concept of 'Hitting on the one'. Everything from 'disco' to 'modern rock' to Hip Hop has built upon that concept introduced by James Brown. In later years the West Coast Hip Hoppers would build around the music of Parliament and George Clinton who themselves were directly influenced and inspired by the 'Hit it on the One' concept of James Brown."


<br><br>The math is simple
JB is the developer/founder/originator/purveyor of modern funk.It's well documented
<br>Funk begat Disco
<br>Disco = Funk

<br>JB's claim was "The Original Disco Man". Disco's have been around since the 1960's and (even before) (Do the Research).As other forum members alluded to people were dancing and grooving to JB long before Mr.Hayes. I'll agree that Issac Hayes did contribute to one of the styles that disco evolved into but let's not forget your original assertion

<br><br>"James Brown rightfully deserves a lot of credit for his musical output and influence . The " Godfather of Soul" ... absolutely. "Soul Brother #1 " ....sure.
When it came to makin' it funky .... he said it loud.

But ..... James Brown .... " The Original Disco Man" ??
........... Don't think so .....

That distinction goes to ........Isaac Hayes .

<br><br>As documented many would disagree and history doesn't support that claim.

<br>THE DEFENSE RESTS!

[hotmixbk]

I recall a remake of an Isaac Hayes classic that was a MAJOR house tune in the 80's..."I Cant Turn Around" from the Chocolate Chip LP...

[Disco Funk]

Hey remicks, check out the BarKay's Soul Finger from '67. Now there's a song with a proto-disco beat. Perhaps they were the godfathers of disco!

Disco Funk

[remicks]

*****
Thanks DF

....and of course it is the funky BarKays ....that is the musical group used by Isaac within much of his music and who also did their own ... SON OF SHAFT spin off .8)



OK
.....from Isaac Hayes ' JUICY FRUIT (DISCO FREAK ) 1976

“They say disco is here to stay
And it will never go away
So just as long as they’re around
You’ll find me in a disco getting down “

Can anyone find as disco friendly and disco supportive a line from the music of that disco false prophet .... the "other" so-called original discoman !!!! ? :roll::razz::razz::razz:


*****

[FranceJoliFan]

I appreciate James Brown's influence. But if we're talking about out-and-out disco songs of the era, James Brown never had a "Don't Let Go" moment like Isaac Hayes. That was a true disco song. That's where Hayes used all his 1970's r&b influences, and refined them into a true disco classic. (And he gets extra points for producing Linda Clifford's "Shoot Your Best Shot.")

I think we have to consider James Brown's voice. I don't think it was smooth enough for disco. Dan Hartman found a way to showcase it on "Living In America" in the 80's. But if Hartman had worked with him in the late 70's during the disco peak, I think he would have used him in a Loleatta Holloway capacity. Used his raw vocals for a "Relight My Fire" type of climax.

[Disco Funk]

You make some good points FJF, but I'd have to say with James' vocals, you could look at guys like Joe Tex or Edwin Starr and see that they had similar, gruff vocal styles, yet they did some great disco tunes.

I just think James never did a great great true disco song (even though I think Body Heat is a great disco tune) because he just ran out of ideas, and he wasn't surrounded by the great interpreters of his ideas, like he was during the early 70s. A guy like Fred Wesley really kept James on the Good Foot. Fred left by the mid 70s, and that's when you hear James hits start to dry up.

The disco beat wasn't exactly something foreign to James. If you listen to early works like Talkin Loud & Sayin Nothin or I Got Ants In My Pants, they've got that consistent disco beat going, even if they aren't four on the floor kick drumming grooves. I think the first attempt by James to do four on the floor was via Lyn Collin's Rock Me Again & Again..., but that was a '74 release, after Earl Young and the Philly sound had made that type of drumming the established disco beat sound.

Disco Funk

[QUINNY]

Did I mention Sexy, Sexy, Sexy before? A pure attempt at Disco by JB that scored on the UK dance floors in 1973!! If anything this was way ahead of its time 'cos it featured sizzling hi hat, something I don't recall hearing from JB before it. If anything, it had DJs wondering what the hell the man was doing, as it didn't have a groove like any previous outing he'd done or anything much else doing the disco rounds at the time (except maybe Tribe's Koke).

Get Up Offa That Thing was totally Disco IMO (for 1976, when Disco was still experimental).

James Brown was a hopeless self publicist, hence his plethora of monickers. He was just tryin' to earn an honest Bob or two, guv. That's all.

[neonlights]

Originally Posted by originalbigm

And for my "Capper" Hip Hop's True Godfather Celebrates A B-Day "When James Brown entered the scene all that changed. He delivered the drum front and center. Vincent noted that James Brown brought out a more prominent rhythmic foundation for the music and introduced the important concept of 'Hitting on the One'. James Brown focused his entire band including the complex horn, rhythm guitar and keyboard arrangements of his band mate Fred Wesley, Pee Wee Ellis and Nat Jones to 'deliver on the one'. James Brown punctuated his efforts by using his voice with his vintage grunts, groans and screams as a binding force which also drew everything 'on the one'. It seems so simple and commonplace today, but back then it was groundbreaking. Vincent who eloquently breaks this whole thing down in book 'The History of Funk' went on to add, that prior to James Brown most American music built upon the Blues tradition. After James Brown, American music built upon the tradition of the Funk concept of 'Hitting on the one'. Everything from 'disco' to 'modern rock' to Hip Hop has built upon that concept introduced by James Brown. In later years the West Coast Hip Hoppers would build around the music of Parliament and George Clinton who themselves were directly influenced and inspired by the 'Hit it on the One' concept of James Brown."

This one cinches it for me too.. I'm a complete amateur compared to the rest of you when it comes to James Brown and Isaac Hayes, but I'd have to say James all the way..

No disrespect to Isaac Hayes and his own considerable contributions (or to you either remicks ) . In fact I think Ike was overall more successful at making actual, straight-ahead disco records too, Disco Connection being a big favourite of mine lately, but there's absolutely no question in my mind who had the bigger influence on disco.. Although James was reluctant to fully embrace disco until it was probably too late, I'd say the shoe still fits. Nevertheless, barring who came first and who had more influence overall, I'd say they're both, to paraphrase a certain song, "certified, bona-fide, original disco men" in their own ways..

I'm not sure if others would agree in classifying it proto-disco like I would, but the 1970 live version of "Get On Up Or Turnit a Loose" from the Sex Machine LP never ever fails to get me moving..

[Simon White]

Have a nice day !

[Simon White]

Here's a new question...which is better, bread or water?

[Disco Funk]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

Did I mention Sexy, Sexy, Sexy before? A pure attempt at Disco by JB that scored on the UK dance floors in 1973!! If anything this was way ahead of its time 'cos it featured sizzling hi hat, something I don't recall hearing from JB before it. If anything, it had DJs wondering what the hell the man was doing, as it didn't have a groove like any previous outing he'd done or anything much else doing the disco rounds at the time (except maybe Tribe's Koke).

Get Up Offa That Thing was totally Disco IMO (for 1976, when Disco was still experimental).

James Brown was a hopeless self publicist, hence his plethora of monickers. He was just tryin' to earn an honest Bob or two, guv. That's all.

I'll have to check out Sexy Sexy Sexy again. That was from Slaughter's Big Rip Off.

I enjoy Get Up Off That Thing, but I don't think of it as good disco because it's got no bottom. It's ass is flat as a door. If you notice it's all top heavy, so you really only hear hi-hat and snare drum. The kick drum was mixed out, if it was even there at all. But it's a fun track.

Disco Funk