Isaac Hayes : Don't Shaft

[remicks]

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Originally Posted by QUINNY

Ike suffered in exactly the same way as James Brown in that both of them were unable (or unwilling) to fully embrace the Disco sound.

:roll: .....emmm.... in 1976 .... Isaac Hayes named an entire album DISCO CONNECTION

............... and later that same year on an album called Groove-A-Thon , he includes the song JUICY FRUIT (DISCO FREAK ).

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[Disco Funk]

I think during the disco era Isaac Hayes did slightly better disco songs than James Brown. Disco Connection is any okay dance tune, not really 'true' disco. That same album had the track 'Disco Shuffle', which as you probably guessed is a shuffle, which isn't a disco-ey type of rhythm arrangement. Juicy Fruit is a syncopated funk jam, not really arranged like a disco tune.

I would say Isaac Hayes attempts at true disco were kind of like Barry White's attempts - kind of, but not really quite getting it down pat. It's the way they lay out their rhythm arrangements that make the songs sound more like up-tempo soul tracks instead of songs faithful to the disco genre.

Ike's later stuff seems to have a better hold of the genre, like the track 'I Ain't Never' and 'Love Has Been Good To Us' on 1980's And Once Again LP, but come across as stale and sanitized efforts.

Disco Funk

[eddie]

Hayes was influenced by Dionne Warwick and her songs with Burt Bacharach which is evidenced by him doing covers of her work.
James Brown was more funk and relied less on melody. Disco is dance music that places heavy emphasis on melody and counter-melodies like strings accompanied by elongated passages.
Disco tended to have more repeated phrasings every bar or couple of bars which is a characteristic of northern soul.

[remicks]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

...... apart from the fact that much of his output in the early '70s had strings, I really don't see any connection ro Disco whatsoever ......

That's right .... JB , as the original discoman :roll: , couldn't be bothered using a minor little disco component called .....strings !!!! :P
& then there was that other slight disco element that Isaac brought forth ...... the wah wah guitar ...

Originally Posted by Disco Funk

I would say Isaac Hayes attempts at true disco were kind of like Barry White's attempts - kind of, but not really quite getting it down pat.

Disco Funk

emmmmm :roll: ...... well, I witnessed those packed dance floors responding to a Barry White disco attempt :P ..... a little number called MY SWEET SUMMER SUITE .......
.... which quickly raced up the national disco chart to peak at its top position of #1 .... :roll:
Not a bad disco attempt ...... you gotta admit .....

But, I do agree with your comparison of Isaac Hayes with Barry White DF .... his music has the most obvious lineage to the Isaac Hayes sound ...... I didn't think there was any doubt about Barry White's massive disco contribution though . He's another one who readily deserves the "Original Disco Man " title ten fold before James Brown.....

My point isn't that Isaac Hayes put out the best disco music or had the sound mastered to perfection .... (although I think DON'T LET GO ranks as above outstanding ) . The point about his releasing albums or songs with titles like DISCO CONNECTION is as evidence that Isaac was far from being disdainful of , nor uninterested in , the genre .... (as one would expect of the original discoman ).....

---- I'm only arguing that of all the claims about James Brown by others (or himself :P ) ....... the least valid is that of "The Original Disco Man" .
That being the case .... it got me interested as to whom is better suited for the title .

When I trace back the sounds of disco I can find a blend of things happening musically in the early seventies converging toward "disco".
One of the most glaring is the work of Isaac Hayes .....

(can anyone name but a few other songs that so strongly stood out as distinctive and complex a groove as "SHAFT " 8) 8) :-? )

...... most particularly 1969's HOT BUTTERED SOUL LP .... because so much can be found in its musical structure that would go on to be incorporated into the disco sound . I can find nothing before that , that so radically twists the approach to pop music ..... that as single- handedly opened the gate toward arranging music in a manner that becomes disco. His influence on Norman Whitfield , Gamble And Huff , Meco, and of course, Barry White are, I contend , more than evident .

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[QUINNY]

Originally Posted by remicks

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:roll: .....emmm.... in 1976 .... Isaac Hayes named an entire album DISCO CONNECTION

............... and later that same year on an album called Groove-A-Thon , he includes the song JUICY FRUIT (DISCO FREAK ).
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I played both of these and both dated incredibly quickly, because they were already outdated when they were made. Groove-a-thon was nothing more than a Brass Construction rip off and Disco Connection a loose attempt at bringing Shaft a little more up to date IMO. Ike just didn't know how to deal with disco and was either pushed or rushed into trying to embrace it.

Hey, I've never said that JB was the original disco man or that I believed him when he proclaimed it, just that his catalogue of work was generally more danceable than Ike's and (as time and the countless samplings have proven) his work laid more dance foundations. Ike made some classic albums, but even Hot Buttered Soul was more or less outdated when released. He harked back to a much earlier time IMO.

BTW: Wah wah guitars were a staple diet of funk music way before Shaft, so you can't pin them onto Ike.

[Disco Funk]

Originally Posted by remicks

That's right .... JB , as the original discoman :roll: , couldn't be bothered using a minor little disco component called .....strings !!!! :P
& then there was that other slight disco element that Isaac brought forth ...... the wah wah guitar ...

Actually, some of the best disco music ever made didn't have any strings. Check out the stuff produced by Dexter Wansel on PIR, or heck, most of the stuff produced by Bunny Sigler - those guys didn't use strings, and they've got some of the baddest funky disco songs out there. A lot of the late 70s Archie Bell disco songs didn't have any strings. Going back a little earlier, songs on TK like Rock Your Baby by George McCrae, Gimme Some by Jimmy Bo Horne, or anything by KC & The Sunshine band didn't have any strings. Then you got cuts like 'Erucu' on the Mahogany Soundtrack, 'Scratchin' by The Magic Disco Machine - again, no strings.

As for the Wah guitar, Ike didn't introduce that to dance music. It was already around. That scratchy wah was already being used on tracks like Breakdown by Rufus Thomas back in 1970.

emmmmm :roll: ...... well, I witnessed those packed dance floors responding to a Barry White disco attempt :P ..... a little number called MY SWEET SUMMER SUITE .......
.... which quickly raced up the national disco chart to peak at its top position of #1 .... :roll:
Not a bad disco attempt ...... you gotta admit .....

But, I do agree with your comparison of Isaac Hayes with Barry White DF .... his music has the most obvious lineage to the Isaac Hayes sound ...... I didn't think there was any doubt about Barry White's massive disco contribution though . He's another one who readily deserves the "Original Disco Man " title ten fold before James Brown.....

Barry White's sound was more of a synchopated funk soul with strings. Thumping dancefloor grooves weren't his speciality, even if he did get club-play. When I refer to true disco, I'm thinking about the four on the floor grooves that Philadelphia cornered the market on, and then later guys like Alec Constandinos and Cerrone drove right into the ground.

So while Barry White and Isaac Hayes both used wah wahs and strings, their songs were not pure disco (in terms of the genre) songs.

My point isn't that Isaac Hayes put out the best disco music or had the sound mastered to perfection .... (although I think DON'T LET GO ranks as above outstanding ) . The point about his releasing albums or songs with titles like DISCO CONNECTION is as evidence that Isaac was far from being disdainful of , nor uninterested in , the genre .... (as one would expect of the original discoman ).....

I don't think he had disdain for the disco genre. I just don't think Ike figured it out. Or he thought all he had to do was use a 2/4 drum beat, and that's all it was, which is what he did on Theme From The Men. The rhythm for disco tunes was a bit more intricate than that.

---- I'm only arguing that of all the claims about James Brown by others (or himself :P ) ....... the least valid is that of "The Original Disco Man" .
That being the case .... it got me interested as to whom is better suited for the title .

When I trace back the sounds of disco I can find a blend of things happening musically in the early seventies converging toward "disco".
One of the most glaring is the work of Isaac Hayes .....

(can anyone name but a few other songs that so strongly stood out as distinctive and complex a groove as "SHAFT " 8) 8) :-? )

Shaft was a great soundtrack tune, and less than a minute of it had a dance beat, which could have been more like old motown than true disco. While I've read many books citing Shaft as the first disco tune, I think they're missing the point on what disco music really was all about. The roots of disco are a bit more complex, and while I do agree that elements of what Isaac Hayes and Barry White played influenced later artists, a lot of the birth of disco was based on pure funk which James Brown was the creator of.

[quote]

...... most particularly 1969's HOT BUTTERED SOUL LP .... because so much can be found in its musical structure that would go on to be incorporated into the disco sound . I can find nothing before that , that so radically twists the approach to pop music ..... that as single- handedly opened the gate toward arranging music in a manner that becomes disco. His influence on Norman Whitfield , Gamble And Huff , Meco, and of course, Barry White are, I contend , more than evident .

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Norman Whitfield's psychedelic soul era happened at the same time as Hot Buttered Soul was released. I think his sound was more influenced by psychedelic rock, James Brown and Sly & The Family Stone. Gamble & Huff and Thom Bell were already doing uptempo soul numbers with strings in Philadelphia at that same time. I can't say where Meco's influences came from, perhaps more Philly than Ike. Of the people you've named, I do agree that Ike had a direct influence on Barry White.

I think if anything, Isaac Hayes' main contribution to disco was probably long, musical opus. Before his album, soul albums were mainly made up of short songs (under 5 minutes or so). Ike probably got his cue to make longer songs from the prog-rock/psychedelic artists who were making single songs taking up whole album sides, like Iron Butterfly's In A Gadda Da Vida.

I'm glad we've had this long and sometimes 'heated' discussion. Its made me think more about the roots of disco, and I've realized that disco was not just the invention of one guy or one song, but a series of experiments and merging of sounds to create the genre we all know and love. Heck, one could even argue that the Hi Records tunes by Al Green were pre-cursors to disco. I'm so Tired of Being Alone came out before Shaft and has a danceable beat similar to what one would find in later disco tunes. In the end, we'll probably never resolve who was the true 'original disco man'. But from my point of view a lot of the disco rhythm was based on the works of James Brown, and he deserves the title, at least when compared to Isaac Hayes.

Disco Funk

[remicks]

Originally Posted by Disco Funk

I'm glad we've had this long and sometimes 'heated' discussion. Its made me think more about the roots of disco ............ But from my point of view a lot of the disco rhythm was based on the works of James Brown, and he deserves the title, at least when compared to Isaac Hayes.

Disco Funk

Don't bow out yet DF ! The Isaac Hayes DISCO CONNECTION ..... is yet to be fully explored !!! :D I'm not about to let the real original disco man get the SHAFT if I can help it !! :P

(I hope by heated ...you don't mean my impassioned positions are being received ( by you or anyone else ) as anything other than as good, hearty, disco sparring 8) )

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[originalbigm]

Originally Posted by remicks

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I didn't know about this consensus OBM ..... not sure I agree ..... but ... if I did .... hmmmm .... 1970 .....what happens in 1970 ... aha ! ..... Isaac Hayes!!


1970 to 1974 .... aha again!! ... more Isaac Hayes !! 8)

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I'm curious to know your timeline for the "disco"era.If you'd be so kind as to list the dominance of Mr.Hayes tunes that were on the disco playlists next to Mr.Brown's in the time period 1970-1974 I might see things in a different light.
And as Disco Funk alluded to much original disco music included non string production and arrangements and comprised mostly funk,soul and r&b.

[Disco Funk]

I just remembered another James Brown disco tune from the early days (recorded in June of '74) - "Rock Me Again & Again...." which he recorded with Lyn Collins. It's a got a funky groove, and a pulsing disco beat.

Disco Funk

[remicks]

Originally Posted by originalbigm

.....
And as Disco Funk alluded to much original disco music included non string production and arrangements and comprised mostly funk,soul and r&b.

The point here is not that strings are required within disco music .... ( yep , lots of great stuff without 'em 8) ) but rather that they are a strong component within the disco sound overall.
IE....when coming home from a night in a disco back then .... one thing that might have stood out in one's half-drunken brain about the night's glorious music was the preponderance of strings in the music throughout the night .

Conversely ... when discussing a funk artist .... the funk sound ..... strings are not likely to be mentioned as a major component. Strings were not forbidden ... but were much more likely to be absent in the works of such performers .... particularly the non-disco ones like ............James Brown ......

Also :
I looked at Marky's current compilation chart (Chart #83 --- May 22, 1976) ... and nine out of these classic top ten songs ( 90 % !!! )... contain strings .... so to say strings weren't a significant part of disco's sound ...
well ...... :P :P :P !!

http://www.discomusic.com/forums/vie...1990&start=120

If I'm not mistaken ... only Jesse Green's terrific NICE AND SLOW is without strings ....
and even his spry little number , which emphasizes a flute , is more Miami TK or Van McCoy sounding ..... and thus still far and away from being anything James Brown like ... !!!!


In conclusion, surely then , the true Original Discoman would've had a strong affiliation with the use of this most significant of disco elements : ..... strings .....

..... as, of course , was indeed the case with Isaac Hayes who consistently swirled them in and about so seductively within his epic pieces.
8)


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[Disco Funk]

James Brown did use strings, he just didn't use them on the uptempo songs. There was an exception, when he did Pick Up The Pieces One By One with the JBs under the name A.A.B.B. (above average black band), which as you can tell was a parody of the Average White Band. He felt they stole his Hot Pants Road when they recorded Pick Up The Pieces. Pick Up The Pieces One By One was released in 1975 and has strings and even a harp.

I think the heavy use of strings for Isaac Hayes and lack of them for James on the uptempo songs had more to do with Isaac being a love song man, and since most of his tracks were love song oriented, he felt comfortable using them even on the uptempo stuff. James Brown was more club oriented, and while he did do the occasional slow song with strings, he preferred not to use them on his funky breakdown tracks. There was an uptempo track which he used strings on, called 'World' from 1969, but it was more soul than funk.

Disco Funk

[remicks]

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James Brown did use strings, he just didn't use them on the uptempo songs.

... Which is one of many reasons .... that his music remained embedded in funk and he never shifted into a style that would bestow him the title of the original discoman .
The point here continues to be ....... who was it that was most experimenting with their music in a way that would ultimately lead to disco. Isaac Hayes' use of lush strings is significant .... By doing so , as well as implementing other lavish elements of orchestration .... he was directing music toward a sound more identifiable as disco. His musical ingredients were strongly emphasizing those that would soon become the bedrock of disco.

James Brown didn't toy with strings in a big way ... This , in part , contributed to his music's adherence to a more established funk sound . If music solely followed James Brown's lead .... dance music would have remained in a rut...... funk, funk, funk, and more funk . It took the musical elements such that Isaac Hayes was exploring to transform dance grooves into disco.

I think the heavy use of strings for Isaac Hayes had more to do with Isaac being a love song man, and since most of his tracks were love song oriented, he felt comfortable using them even on the uptempo stuff

Yes! 8)
and it was Isaac's comfort with doing this ... placing love song elements into uptempo grooves ... (among other things )....that resulted in his guiding music toward the disco sound.

I think we're making some progress here ! :D

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[QUINNY]

And who had more tracks danced to by more people all over the world, than any other single artist in the proto disco period.........James Brown. Hence his claim to be the Original Disco Man.

We could go on like this for eons....I for one am getting rather bored by this now!!!

[remicks]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

And who had more tracks danced to by more people all over the world, than any other single artist in the proto disco period.........James Brown.

If you're talkin' specifically about the funk crowd that is. Not sure just how widespread that crowd was .... ??? I reckon T-Rex , Credence Clearwater , Donny Osmond and Lawrence Welk had legions of folks dancing to their sounds too. I think polka was pretty strong in some regions . The tango ...

Yes James Brown was hot stuff right thru the early seventies , and if you limit dance music of that era to funk only ... he ruled . But even he became staler than left over Rainbow bread .... once dance music moved on and started sounding more like Isaac Hayes ..... and that's when disco took over .

I'll repeat this because I think the point is a good one :

Originally Posted by myself

If music solely followed James Brown's lead .... dance music would have remained in a rut...... funk, funk, funk, and more funk . It took the musical elements such that Isaac Hayes was exploring to transform dance grooves into disco.

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[Disco Funk]

I know we're just going back and forth with this topic, but I just want to add that disco IS funk. It's a different type of funk. Even the pop-disco songs have a bit of funkiness to them. Its a faster tempo funk, but its still funk. And James Brown was the funk king. He was also the king of clubs. Ike had some great uptempo soul tunes, and some of it was funky, and probably got play in the clubs, but James Brown's grooves and beat were dancefloor oriented which predated Ike's Shaft. As has been pointed out, strings were one ingredient of disco, but it wasn't an essential ingredient. In other words, there were tons of disco tunes without strings. So if Ikes main contribution was to add strings to uptempo soul songs, it wasn't an essential addition. It was a nice addition, but not essential. Plus I believe Thom Bell and Gamble & Huff were using strings on their uptempo productions in Philly well before Ike did.

Disco Funk