Isaac Hayes : Don't Shaft

[remicks]

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Alright ..... I'm not through here yet !!! :P
Should I take it then , from the lack of response ... not too much Isaac Hayes in the ol' record crate box ......???

Originally Posted by Disco Funk

But lets face it, James did Papa Was A Brand New Bag and Outa Sight in '64 which were protofunk records

Disco Funk

OK .... yes those are ..... "protofunk " records .... but I'm talkin' disco here .....

Quinny : There's no contest between Ike and JB. JB wins hands down when it comes to danceability"

Danceability ? .... again ... I'm specificically addressing the concept of "disco". Heck .... Glenn Miller and Tex Ritter had even more danceability than James Brown .... so , then what ??? :-?

". James might have a case for claiming to the be the Original Disco Man, because his output was mostly dance oriented,.... that would lead into stuff like Cold Sweat in '67, way before Isaac even did his first album. So he truly was the 'original disco man'."

Using this reasoning ... Chubby Checker trumps James Brown . That means Chubby Checker should have been calling himself the "original discoman" in 1979. . :roll: ..........

James Brown had a great dance groove .... but then .... so did Frankie and Annette ... ( check out those jumpin' beach parties. ) !! I 'm addressing who was most developing the elements in their musical style that would point to them as " the original discoman " .... disco .... not danceability .... not funk ......

I don't know the tune " THERE WAS A TIME ' but I assume that is the one you are choosing that exhibits James Brown at his most disco- est . Will be interesting to put it up alongside the music of Isaac Hayes . Several of Isaac's comps would work just fine ..... but I think I'll suggest "THEME FROM THE MEN " .....1972

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p.s. ------ PAPA WAS A BRAND NEW BAG ( wasn't that the Temptations / James Brown medley mix ??) :P :lol: .... 8)

[Disco Funk]

LOL! 'Papa Was A Brand New Bag', yes it was written by Norman Whitfield and James Brown.

I guess Chubby Checker could claim to be the original disco man, but we're comparing James and Isaac, and James' insistance that he was the original. I'd say he was doing uptempo disco tracks before Hayes. 'Talking Loud & Saying Nothing' from 1970 and 'I Got Ants In My Pants' and 'I'm A Greedy Man' from late 71/early 72, are good examples. I will admit that later 70s albums contained weak attempts at disco. If he had made more tracks like Body Heat I think he would have had good claim to a 'Godfather of Disco' claim. I think he lost a lot of steam by the mid 70s because everyone started leaving and he was running out of ideas, hence the various rip-off remakes like 'Monaurail (It's Not The Express)', which was a BT Express' 'Express', and 'Hot (I Need To Be Loved)' was a remake of David Bowie's 'Fame'.

I have to clarify 'There Was A Time'. It was taken from the Live At The Apollo 2 performance. The lyric in 'Little Groove Maker' is 'hey hey, I feel alright one time' then bang on the drum. The new Deluxe Ed CD release of that concert puts everything together - Let Yourself Go/There Was A Time/I Feel Alright - back into its original 17 minute plus length! At least, that's what the Amazon write-up says.

Disco Funk

[originalbigm]

Remix your reading it wrong.Again let's address the context of the claim The Original Discoman.JB never said originator of the disco sound but "The Original Discoman" .I think the general consensus on this website is that the Disco era can basically defined as 1970-1979.Now take the formative years 1970-1974 and list for me how many Issac Hayes tunes would be floor jammers and compare it to how many JB tunes would be floor jammers. Don't forget you need to consider other artists he wrote for,performed with and produced such as The JB's and Lyn Collins.In that time period I would suggest that "Shaft" was the only floor jammer.As compared to at least a dozen or more JB numbers. Both artists were formulaic in their sound but defiantely JB qualifies as the most danceable. I think the claim is justified. IMHO

[remicks]

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I'll agree to the title of "Original NON -Disco Man" :P

..... James Brown may have had them on the floor in the earliest of the 70's ... but that was for the crowd stilll groovin' on the funk sounds carried over from the sixties ...
As disco continued to define itself ..... it displaced that sound .
Unlike many upcoming funksters ... James Brown resisted and dug in deeper into his established sound ... which worked for awhile ...

But the times were a changing ....

So that meanwhile .... everything fresh and ground breaking coming from the Isaac Hayes camp was capturing the imagination of the music innovators of that same early seventies period ..... They sucked up its sweetness like jasmine nectar ...... ( the sweetness was the weakness ... ) The original sounds , styles, and attitudes Isaac was introducing to music would then become the sound of Disco ( with a captal "D" ) ...

This sound was the new sound that then overrode and left behind a defiant non-disco ...... James Brown ....


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.I think the general consensus on this website is that the Disco era can basically defined as 1970-1979.

I didn't know about this consensus OBM ..... not sure I agree ..... but ... if I did .... hmmmm .... 1970 .....what happens in 1970 ... aha ! ..... Isaac Hayes!!

Now take the formative years 1970-1974

1970 to 1974 .... aha again!! ... more Isaac Hayes !! 8)

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[QUINNY]

I'd bet a dollar to a cent that Isaac Hayes was bought by middle aged reprobates more than hip teenagers and apart from the fact that much of his output in the early '70s had strings, I really don't see any connection ro Disco whatsoever. He was never anything more than lounge music by the '70s and he hardly made a mark on the Disco scene. Ike suffered in exactly the same way as James Brown in that both of them were unable (or unwilling) to fully embrace the Disco sound. He was already a has been by the time Disco really took off, just like James Brown.
However, Ike's best songs were recorded in the mid to late '60s, whereas James Brown's best toons were most definitely in the early to mid '70s.

[remicks]

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Originally Posted by QUINNY

Ike suffered in exactly the same way as James Brown in that both of them were unable (or unwilling) to fully embrace the Disco sound.

:roll: .....emmm.... in 1976 .... Isaac Hayes named an entire album DISCO CONNECTION

............... and later that same year on an album called Groove-A-Thon , he includes the song JUICY FRUIT (DISCO FREAK ).

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[Disco Funk]

I think during the disco era Isaac Hayes did slightly better disco songs than James Brown. Disco Connection is any okay dance tune, not really 'true' disco. That same album had the track 'Disco Shuffle', which as you probably guessed is a shuffle, which isn't a disco-ey type of rhythm arrangement. Juicy Fruit is a syncopated funk jam, not really arranged like a disco tune.

I would say Isaac Hayes attempts at true disco were kind of like Barry White's attempts - kind of, but not really quite getting it down pat. It's the way they lay out their rhythm arrangements that make the songs sound more like up-tempo soul tracks instead of songs faithful to the disco genre.

Ike's later stuff seems to have a better hold of the genre, like the track 'I Ain't Never' and 'Love Has Been Good To Us' on 1980's And Once Again LP, but come across as stale and sanitized efforts.

Disco Funk

[eddie]

Hayes was influenced by Dionne Warwick and her songs with Burt Bacharach which is evidenced by him doing covers of her work.
James Brown was more funk and relied less on melody. Disco is dance music that places heavy emphasis on melody and counter-melodies like strings accompanied by elongated passages.
Disco tended to have more repeated phrasings every bar or couple of bars which is a characteristic of northern soul.

[remicks]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

...... apart from the fact that much of his output in the early '70s had strings, I really don't see any connection ro Disco whatsoever ......

That's right .... JB , as the original discoman :roll: , couldn't be bothered using a minor little disco component called .....strings !!!! :P
& then there was that other slight disco element that Isaac brought forth ...... the wah wah guitar ...

Originally Posted by Disco Funk

I would say Isaac Hayes attempts at true disco were kind of like Barry White's attempts - kind of, but not really quite getting it down pat.

Disco Funk

emmmmm :roll: ...... well, I witnessed those packed dance floors responding to a Barry White disco attempt :P ..... a little number called MY SWEET SUMMER SUITE .......
.... which quickly raced up the national disco chart to peak at its top position of #1 .... :roll:
Not a bad disco attempt ...... you gotta admit .....

But, I do agree with your comparison of Isaac Hayes with Barry White DF .... his music has the most obvious lineage to the Isaac Hayes sound ...... I didn't think there was any doubt about Barry White's massive disco contribution though . He's another one who readily deserves the "Original Disco Man " title ten fold before James Brown.....

My point isn't that Isaac Hayes put out the best disco music or had the sound mastered to perfection .... (although I think DON'T LET GO ranks as above outstanding ) . The point about his releasing albums or songs with titles like DISCO CONNECTION is as evidence that Isaac was far from being disdainful of , nor uninterested in , the genre .... (as one would expect of the original discoman ).....

---- I'm only arguing that of all the claims about James Brown by others (or himself :P ) ....... the least valid is that of "The Original Disco Man" .
That being the case .... it got me interested as to whom is better suited for the title .

When I trace back the sounds of disco I can find a blend of things happening musically in the early seventies converging toward "disco".
One of the most glaring is the work of Isaac Hayes .....

(can anyone name but a few other songs that so strongly stood out as distinctive and complex a groove as "SHAFT " 8) 8) :-? )

...... most particularly 1969's HOT BUTTERED SOUL LP .... because so much can be found in its musical structure that would go on to be incorporated into the disco sound . I can find nothing before that , that so radically twists the approach to pop music ..... that as single- handedly opened the gate toward arranging music in a manner that becomes disco. His influence on Norman Whitfield , Gamble And Huff , Meco, and of course, Barry White are, I contend , more than evident .

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[QUINNY]

Originally Posted by remicks

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:roll: .....emmm.... in 1976 .... Isaac Hayes named an entire album DISCO CONNECTION

............... and later that same year on an album called Groove-A-Thon , he includes the song JUICY FRUIT (DISCO FREAK ).
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I played both of these and both dated incredibly quickly, because they were already outdated when they were made. Groove-a-thon was nothing more than a Brass Construction rip off and Disco Connection a loose attempt at bringing Shaft a little more up to date IMO. Ike just didn't know how to deal with disco and was either pushed or rushed into trying to embrace it.

Hey, I've never said that JB was the original disco man or that I believed him when he proclaimed it, just that his catalogue of work was generally more danceable than Ike's and (as time and the countless samplings have proven) his work laid more dance foundations. Ike made some classic albums, but even Hot Buttered Soul was more or less outdated when released. He harked back to a much earlier time IMO.

BTW: Wah wah guitars were a staple diet of funk music way before Shaft, so you can't pin them onto Ike.