the very first disco song???

[remicks]

Originally Posted by Disco Funk

Hmmm....if those pop songs are going to be considered early forms of Disco, then Paul McCartney's tracks from 1970 (Momma Miss America) and 1971 (Monkberry Moon Delight) need to be put in there too!

Disco Funk

OK MOMMA MISS AMERICA has a most interesting predisco funk type groove .... has anyone tried mixing this with The Stones MISS YOU ??



Not as convinced about the dance scene impact the ompa ompa sound used on MONKBERRRY MOON DELIGHT had :

I'd mix it into this :



*****

[Disco Funk]

Originally Posted by remicks

OK MOMMA MISS AMERICA has a most interesting predisco funk type groove .... has anyone tried mixing this with The Stones MISS YOU ??



Not as convinced about the dance scene impact the ompa ompa sound used on MONKBERRRY MOON DELIGHT had :

I'd mix it into this :
*****

Yeah, that Three Dog Night and the Monkberry Moon Delight (hey that rhymes) tracks would definitely mix well into each other. :)

I haven't tried mixing Momma Miss America and Miss You. Does it work really well? Can you believe that Paul's first solo LP (the one with Momma Miss America, and other tracks like Maybe I'm Amazed and Kreen Akrore) is just Paul all by himself! And Band on The Run, his first really big record after leaving the Beatles, was just him, Denny Laine and Linda? Denny's contribution would have been guitar and keyboards, whereas Linda's would have been vocals only. The rest was all Paul, minus strings, brass or woodwinds, of course!

Disco Funk

[SUPERGONZO]

I recently was having this discussion with some friends of mine, and being that I have a collection of some 35,000 45's, I went back and browsed a bit.

IMHO

Shaft...Issac Hayes.....was great but not disco. Neither was any of the other stuff before 1971. Soul YES....Funk....YES....Disco....NO

And the question of what was first is certainly a grey area, but lets look at the hits.

Soul Makossa... I actually heard this song in the very early summer of 1972, while in Africa. and then it became a hit when I had gotten back to the US later that summer. I didn't consider it disco and I don't think anyone else thought it was either. Although it certainly has some of the qualities of later disco hits.

Love Train.....O' Jays....really great song but Disco?? The problem here is that the line was blurring a bit and a new faster sound was coming to Soul and Funk...but is this Disco??? I don't think so.

April 1973.....Barry White....I'm Gonna love you just a little more... Disco?? Sexy Soul certainly

October 1973....Barry White.... Never Never gonna give you up...sounding more disco-like to me, almost there

December 1973...Love Unlimited Orchestra (Barry White).....Love's Theme.... this sounds pretty Disco, and was a number 1 hit

March 1974......MFSB....TSOP...sometimes known as the "Soul Train" song
Big #1 hit....Disco...could be??

April 1974.....Kool and the Gang...Hollywood Swinging.......Funk/Soul...but danceable. hmmm?? Disco??

May 1974...Hughs Corp...Rock The Boat........Claimed as 1st Disco record, but certainly not, and doesn't really sound all that Disco to me, good pop record though.

June 1974...George McCrae....Rock your Baby......Written by young Harry Casey...otherwise known as KC of KC and the sunshine band. Definitely Disco...No Doubt about it... Coming just 2 weeks after the above song.

Many others start to follow.

If I had to pick one it would be Love's Theme....by Barry White...especially if he wrote that alot earlier than 1973.

If you don't care for instrumentals then My pick is Rock your Baby.....

Either way Barry White and KC have alot of explaining to do!
Ok one of them does.

[Paulo]

Originally Posted by Disco Funk

Hmmm....if those pop songs are going to be considered early forms of Disco, then Paul McCartney's tracks from 1970 (Momma Miss America) and 1971 (Monkberry Moon Delight) need to be put in there too! Disco Funk

Nowhere in my post it is written that CO-CO by The Sweet or POP CONCERTO SHOW by Pop Concerto Orchestra are early forms of disco.

If you read carefully it is written that:
"I guess all these pop songs right before the birth of Disco were big everywhere. I had forgotten CO-CO by The Sweet. It played a lot on the radio in 1971. There was one brazilian cover version of this song with emphasis on percussion.... as well as 2 covers of the song Pop Concerto Show by awful studio carbon-copy female singers, but with all the percussion breaks."

I was talking to Jussi about early 70's songs which were covered by brazilian acts. But I didn't say that they were early forms of disco... On the other hand, I think those songs (which had percussion breaks) may have led to the birth of disco-music.

I said it before, but I say again what I think:

From everything that I saw / heard / read, I came to the conclusion that in the early 70s there were a lot of musical elements spread in a variety of POP and SOUL songs that when grouped together, gave birth to DISCO as a separate style.

Take for instance, SHAFT.
Is it disco? YES. NO. YES. NO. YES. NO.

But SHAFT has a lot of these musical elements which were fundamental for the appearance of the disco sound... like:

1) The way the strings are arranged and the way they sound
2) Wah-wah guitar
3) Fluterry female background vocals
4) A steady 4/4 rythm (from the middle of the song onwards)
5) Brass

Is SHAFT soul ? YES.
Is SHAFT disco ? ALMOST.
If it had a kick drum on it, you would have had the very first disco song ever.

What's really important is that SHAFT is placed in the watershed line of a time when SOUL was givin birth to DISCO, in a way that MOONKBERRY MOON DELIGHT and MOMMA MISS AMERICA could never be, because these 2 songs have absolutely none of the musical elements which would define DISCO as a form of music.

The same could apply to POP CONCERTO SHOW. Is it disco?
Absolutely not!
But it has a percussion break in the middle of it which is commonly found on the early disco songs.

All these elements form the roots of disco-music.

IMHO I would say (without fear of sounding totally ridiculous) that SHAFT (Isaac Hayes), K-JEE (The Nightliters) and ARMED AND EXTREMELY DANGEROUS (First Choice) are closer to disco than to soul... what makes of them early forms of disco. Now... that I really said.

[markydefad]

Let's hear it for the boy, let's give PAULO a hand!!!

Great post! My sentiments exactly.

Between Sly & the Family Stone & Barry White--stands the link of Isaac Hayes' great "Theme From Shaft"...paving the way for Orchestral Soul which became Disco.....

[JussiK]

Originally Posted by Paulo

The same could apply to POP CONCERTO SHOW. Is it disco?
Absolutely not!

Well...as it happens, I'm about to give lecture at the local university focusing on disco (naturally already "sold out" 2 weeks in advance by students having secured their seats :-), and will present "Carmen" and "Pop Corn" by Pop Concerto Show as two early examples of the music. But of course all this is terribly subjective. As is my claim that jazz keyboardist-cum-moog maniac Dick Hyman's "Minotaur" caused one of the very first outbreaks of discoism during the sixties - they did dance to that in nightclubs, and the pulsating, definitely non-rock track is seven minutes long.

[Paulo]

Originally Posted by JussiK

Well...as it happens, I'm about to give lecture at the local university focusing on disco... and will present "Carmen" and "Pop Corn" by Pop Concerto Show as two early examples of the music. But of course all this is terribly subjective.

Are you going to present these songs as ''early examples of disco'' ?

The difference between our points of view is that you already define this music as disco. And mine is that they are normal POP songs, which had some musical elements used (just a little bit later) in the first ''proper'' disco songs.

But as you said: since all this is terribly subjective, wouldn't it be more accurate if you present them as ''songs that influenced the birth of disco" ?

I don't want to interfere in your lecture but I think Shaft would be a better example of proto-disco, because it has much more musical elements commonly found on disco.

To me, Shaft is a kick drum away from disco.

Originally Posted by JussiK

As is my claim that jazz keyboardist-cum-moog maniac Dick Hyman's "Minotaur" caused one of the very first outbreaks of discoism during the sixties - they did dance to that in nightclubs, and the pulsating, definitely non-rock track is seven minutes long.

I don't know this song, but if it has a moog on it, then (at least) it must be from 1969 or 1970. But just because it was played in the clubs is enough to call it as ''an outbreak of discoism'' during the 60s?

I mean: Are you trying to make a connection beteween this song and the music the world came to know as disco?

[JussiK]

Are you going to present these songs as ''early examples of disco'' ?

- Yes, that's the case. I'm going to define "disco" as 4/4 beat dance music with a hedonistic, theatrical, the dancer-as-the-star attitude, as opposed to grittier funk-based dance music.

The difference between our points of view is that you already define this music as disco. And mine is that they are normal POP songs, which had some musical elements used (just a little bit later) in the first ''proper'' disco songs.

- Well, you'r right, as the word "disco" wasn't really used back in the late 60's/early 70's..or was it? In fact it apparently was in England, by individuals like Rosco. So, while stuff like Co-Co, the Pop Concerto tunes or Italian action film soundtracks weren't yet "offically" disco, they sort of were...am I making any sense here? I think not, so I got to make this argument more clear to myself before I step on the podium to face the students.

I don't know this song, but if it has a moog on it, then (at least) it must be from 1969 or 1970. But just because it was played in the clubs is enough to call it as ''an outbreak of discoism'' during the 60s?

-Again, it's all down to The Attitude: the track is instrumental, has a title suggesting mock-exotic imagery, is unusually long, and most importantly coaxes the listener to dance to a steady, non-rock based pre-"Rock Your Baby" syncopated synth throb.

I mean: Are you trying to make a connection beteween this song and the music the world came to know as disco?
- Yes. Marcel Duchamp was already doing pop art only it wasn't called that yet. The Pop Concerto things are most evidently already disco, only they did not know it. Sounds Like I'm pontificating horribly here? I don't care..:-)

[Disco Funk]

I like Shaft a lot, but I think it's more like soundtrack music than pure disco. It was elements of Shaft and elements of other songs from that time that merged to create disco.

I will still insist that true disco music, the archetype as you could say, originated out of Philadelphia in almost its complete form. Other artists had bits and pieces of the proper formula, but it was the Philly Sound that put it all together. I'm still trying to determine what the earliest disco track was from Philly. It's tough because some of the early 45s, like the ones on North Bay, don't have dates on them. So a track like 'Do The Robot' by The Family, which features some nice proto-disco groove - I don't know if it came out in 71 or 72. Before that record, North Bay put out 'Family Affair'/'Nation Time', which would also constitute early examples of disco. And then you had those Trammps recordings from 72 like Zing and Rubber Band that had the total package of dance beat, funky groove, and strings (to please Remicks).

Disco Funk

[discokicks]

Originally Posted by JussiK

Are you going to present these songs as ''early examples of disco'' ?

- Yes, that's the case. I'm going to define "disco" as 4/4 beat dance music with a hedonistic, theatrical, the dancer-as-the-star attitude, as opposed to grittier funk-based dance music.

Jussi....I think this has got to be one of the most descriptive pictures of what the disco song is about and how it came to be. There are many songs from the 60s that are great to dance to but the original intent was not primarily focussed on the dancer. I think of a song like Dancing In The Street...a good song to stomp to but the emphasis was on the Motown sound, promoting the song on a pop level and the group Martha Reeves and the Vandellas. The dancer might select this as just another song worth getting down to but it wasn't catered to their specific personal interest.

Maybe I'm being naive here, but I wonder if the passion of the dancer...that need to throw oneself on a dancefloor for hours of sweating and physical release....was something that evolved simultaneously with the 4/4 beat! The two responded to each other harmoniously in the early 70s and out of this pairing, the disco song emerged.

And although the Theme From Shaft has disco elements, the song was created for the movie...not specifically for the dancer. Perhaps we should be looking for that very first song that was!

[SUPERGONZO]

OKay a few more wrinkles to be added..

Disco sound certainly seems to evolved out of the Philly sound, which took soul and kicked it up a notch in the mid 70's.. You decide I'm not here to argue, but here are some more early pop/soul/dance/R&B/disco? hits


Love Train..Again......Certainly Philly enough..but Disco?? I just don't know, if you consider it Disco then the race is over: this is the first Disco Record, if you don't then it certainly influenced alot of stuff to follow released in 1972...hit charts in January 1973... I personally say NO


Also Sprack Zarathustra......Deodato..... February 1973......This sounds both Philly-ish ? Classical AND Disco....Instrumental......Is it Disco???

Armed and Exremely Dangerous....First Choice... March 1973 .Philly sound again....not quite Disco though IMO

I'll Always Love my Mama...Intruders...June 1973....Definetly Philly...Disco???? Nah

Smarty Pants....First Choice....November 1973....This sounds alot more Disco than their first record, but still a very strong Philly influence.... Disco????

[SUPERGONZO]

PUT IT ALL TOGETHR YOU GET THIS:

Shaft...Issac Hayes.....was great but not disco. Neither was any of the other stuff before 1971. Soul YES....Funk....YES....Disco....NO.. I agree with the Soundtrack Comment

Love Train.....O' Jays....The problem here is that the line was blurring a bit and a new faster sound was coming to Soul and Funk...Disco?? I just don't know, if you consider it Disco then the race is over: this is the first Disco Record, if you don't then it certainly influenced alot of stuff to follow ....Released in 1972...hit charts in January 1973... I personally say NO its great A Philly sound.

Also Sprack Zarathustra......Deodato..... February 1973......This sounds both Philly-ish / Classical AND Disco....Instrumental......Is it Disco???

Armed and Exremely Dangerous....First Choice... March 1973 .Philly sound again....not quite Disco though IMO

April 1973.....Barry White....I'm Gonna love you just a little more... Disco?? Sexy Soul certainly

I'll Always Love my Mama...Intruders...June 1973....Definetly Philly...Disco???? Nah not for me

Soul Makossa... I actually heard this song in the very early summer of (May) 1973, while in Africa. and then it became a hit when I had gotten back to the US later that summer. I didn't consider it disco and I don't think anyone else thought it was either. Although it certainly has some of the qualities of later disco hits.

October 1973....Barry White.... Never Never gonna give you up...sounding more disco-like to me, almost there

Smarty Pants....First Choice....November 1973....This sounds alot more Disco-like than their first record, but still a very strong Philly influence.... Disco????

December 1973...Love Unlimited Orchestra (Barry White).....Love's Theme.... this sounds pretty Disco, and was a number 1 hit

Pepper Box...The Peppers..... Released late in 1973 in Europe where it was a smash, Although out of NYC. Hit the US Charts in March 1974. This IS DISCO... No question in my mind. Played for years in clubs here in NYC

March 1974......MFSB....TSOP...sometimes known as the "Soul Train" song
Big #1 hit....Disco...could be??

April 1974.....Kool and the Gang...Hollywood Swinging.......Funk/Soul...but danceable. hmmm?? Disco?? Nah

May 1974...Hughs Corp...Rock The Boat........Claimed as 1st Disco record, but certainly not, and doesn't really sound all that Disco to me, good pop record though.

June 1974...George McCrae....Rock your Baby......Written by young Harry Casey...otherwise known as KC of KC and the sunshine band. Definitely Disco...No Doubt about it... Coming just 2 weeks after the above song. Great LP btw. With a long version of Rock your Baby on it. Before 12" Disco records came out.

Many others start to follow.

If I had to pick one it would be Love's Theme....by Barry White...especially if he wrote that alot earlier than 1973 as claimed.

Pepper Box...by the Peppers cannot be overlooked though. And First Choice certainly can claim some responsibility although they are tradionally Philly sounding.

Also Deodato....is a good bet I think as well. Instrumentals the first Disco Records??? Could be

Either way Barry White and KC have alot of explaining to do!

[Disco Funk]

I forgot to add that I do believe that Rock The Boat is disco, in that it features a latin groove that would become the trademark sound of Van McCoy. So if their song was not disco, then neither was Van McCoy's stuff, like Faith Hope & Charity's 'To Each His Own', David Ruffin's 'Wild Honey', or Van McCoy's 'Love At First Sight'.

I keep forgetting to mention a couple of other great dance tracks from '72 that were precursors to disco. It was a shame the artist who created them didn't continue with the same greatness as on that debut LP. I'm talking about Bohannon and his cuts 'Stop & Go' and 'Pimp Walk'.

Back to the Philly sound, I totally think Armed & Extremely Dangerous and Smarty Pants were disco. A&ED featured a nice little beat with the Tom Tom drum, while the drums are Smarty Pants would be used so many times later by Earl Young on tracks like Salsoul Orchestra's You're Just The Right Size. Newsy Neighbours from that same session was also great disco dancefloor material. But I think they were all pre-dated by Fantastic Johnny C's 'Waitin For The Rain', which is totally disco. That record was released in Feb 1973.

As for Barry White, as much as I love his and Gene Pages productions, their rhythm was not discoey. It was straight up soul funk with a lot of strings. If those early tunes had placed emphasis on a driving kick drum on every (down) beat, with some slight syncopation, they might be more disco sounding. True disco is about a pulsing beat, if anything. And it's not just about hitting the snare on every beat like in part of Shaft. It should be a pulsing groove overall. At least, that's my take on it. But tracks like Hollywood Swingin are hard to figure out. For me that is just funk, not really disco. I can't quite put my finger on why it's not disco-sounding to me, even though I'm sure it was a dancefloor filler back in the day. I don't think the addition of strings would have changed that. Perhaps I'm too biased to the Philly sound? :) Pepper Box just sounds too novelty, because of the loud synth, for me to take seriously. It's got a nice groove, but the bridge sections are too kitzchy and ruin the flow of the song, in my opinion.

Disco Funk

[Disco Funk]

Oh yeah, how would you guys rate this track on a proto-disco scale? If you don't know it already I'll tell you who did it and when, in a follow-up reply:

Proto disco?

Disco Funk

[JussiK]

Originally Posted by SUPERGONZO

PUT IT ALL TOGETHR YOU GET THIS:
...the list.

Apart from 1 or two exceptions like Soul Makossa, the entire list that you put together is made of American recordings, as if Salvador Dali never staged his surrealist balls in Catalonia and did not employ djs to spin instrumental records with moog sounds and a throb to make the models (Amanda Lear included), artists and various scenemakers feel like superstars and dance, in 1972? And what about the proto disco soundclip demonstrated in the above post, the Pop Concerto Orchestra tunes that were spinned in nightclubs to dancers who had no idea what the records were, ALL the Italian soundtracks with non-rock style four on the floor boogie numbers that have been re-realesed on cd in the US as well ( I'd imagine...), now collectable semi-electronic synth-bossa hybrids with a strong 4/4 beat that have been included in cd comps like Espresso Espresso, Serge Gainsbourg, Titanic, tracks like "Ode To Linda" from the Benelux countries, endless obscure forgotten one shot wonders created during the early 70's to make people do nothing but dance in non-rock style, in Europe? Known in the US or not they still remain prototypes if not actual disco already and as such will be canonised in Academia in a 2 weeks time, offically :-)!