the very first disco song???

[Huffstutler]

While surfing about I ran across an interesting (and I am sure not unfamiliar) site at disco-disco.com under the Proto-Disco and First Disco Song page. The author states they asked 1,200 DJs from the Disco era what they recall as the first disco song. Not sure how this (if) accomplished trying to track down let alone poll 1,200 middle-aged disco DJs. Then the results of the top 25 songs was a bit askewed if you ask me.

#1 wasn't a shock as 90% state "Zing..." by the Trammps but #2 on the list was odd... they say "Cisco Kid" and other similar War songs was the first disco song. Hmmm... 80% (960) says this over "Love Train" (which was #7) or even "Shaft" at # 8? And even more of a shock was "In The Summertime" by Mungo Jerry. Disco? - not in my book but more pseudo reggae-soft rock-pop. This clocked in at #9. So... was all of the DJ's "DISCO" oriented or a bunch of mainstream Top 40 radio DJs?

Just passing that along in case someone missed this site!

Eric Huffstutler
Richmond, VA

[drlove]

just re-visited that particular webpage, Huffstutler, and besides joining you in scratching my head at "In The Summertime" . . . . am equally confused at the inclusion of "Let's Get It On" (1973), one of the sexiest songs ever placed on top 40 radio, BUT was it disco ??? I never thought so, though I may be in the minority on that one !!!

[Huffstutler]

Hey drlove... 15 minutes from the French Quarter huh? I lived 5 years in New Orleans during the last phase of the Disco era (late 70s early 80s) including in the French Quarter itself and later in Metarie.

The Ike and Tina Turner song has been on several lists and it is a bit of a stretch - not exactly disco but dancable and still one of my favorite pre solo offerings by them.

[EDIT]... OOPS! Brain Fart (and old fart)! You were talking about Marvin Gaye's "Let's Get It On" and I was thinking "Baby, Get It On" (1975) by Ike and Tina. Yes, the Marvin Gaye song is definately not disco - more Motown soul exclusive

Eric

[drlove]

Eric, the N.O. club scene's changed quite a bit since you were there in the early '80s, though the Bourbon Pub/Parade is still packing 'em in on weekend nights. I particularly love Sundays when they play the retro videos such as our disco faves . . .

[Huffstutler]

drlove... I bet it has! I was there in a transitional period where Disco was starting to go back underground and disco-rock music infiltrating the scene while New Wave was a new venture for the younger folks. AIDS had become known and the climate around town changing.

At the time Jerry Menefee owned the Parade in N.O. and Houston (does he still?) and had just done some heavy renovations including going to NYC and buying a new lighting and sound system for the main 2nd level dance floor. He spent over $1-million on that alone I understood. That was one of my main hangouts but also frequented Lafitte's (Tom Wood owned it), Jewel's Tavern on Decatur St., TT's / Rampart's, Tiger's Lounge (think Alton "Tiger" Tubbs had that), and Red River Bottom. Of course the Parade was "the" place to go gay or straight to dance. I was friends with several of the owners of various clubs and in them 3-4 nights a week on average.

Eric

[Huffstutler]

Has anyone checked out Bill Wither's 1971 song "Harlem" which was the 'B' side of "Ain't No Sunshine". "Harlem" has some psudo-disco instrumentation. Comments?

Eric

[drlove]

Nice ear you have, Eric !!! I hadn't heard it before, but found it online here:

YouTube - BILL WITHERS - HARLEM ))mono((

. . . and the addition of strings at the beginning, with this stomping groove, is indeed (to me) an example of early disco elements. That stomping/shuffle-type groove + strings was used similarly in that lengthy intro to 1972's "Papa Was A Rolling Stone" (Temptations). Accordingly, I think those "Harlem" and "Papa" are kindred cousins in that respect.

Thanks for turning me on to a fine song by Mr. Withers (his "Lean On Me" is one of my fave non-disco tunes of the entire '70s).

[Disco Funk]

Originally Posted by drlove

Nice ear you have, Eric !!! I hadn't heard it before, but found it online here:

YouTube - BILL WITHERS - HARLEM ))mono((

. . . and the addition of strings at the beginning, with this stomping groove, is indeed (to me) an example of early disco elements. That stomping/shuffle-type groove + strings was used similarly in that lengthy intro to 1972's "Papa Was A Rolling Stone" (Temptations). Accordingly, I think those "Harlem" and "Papa" are kindred cousins in that respect.

Thanks for turning me on to a fine song by Mr. Withers (his "Lean On Me" is one of my fave non-disco tunes of the entire '70s).

Thanks for that link. I don't recall hearing that Withers track before. I'm not sure if its the same one that Creative Source covered a few years later.

It's a tough call on that one, as to whether it's pre-disco or a throw-back to 60's Philly and Motown, where they had uptempo grooves pounding on the snare on every beat. Actually, the beat reminds me more of Roy Orbison's Pretty Woman towards the middle when the instruments cut out. Perhaps that's one of the missing links on the path to disco? People in the early 70s trying to copy Motowns earlier thumping beat.

The Equals 'Baby Come Back' from 1968 could be considered proto-disco, minus the strings. And I think 'Soul Finger' by The Barkays could also be put into that category.

I guess any one of these songs could be mixed into a set of early dance club numbers, but sadly, they would standout like a sore thumb if mixed into tracks like Good Times by Chic, Dancer by Gino Soccio, and so on.

Disco Funk

[Huffstutler]

Disco Funk

True on many points. But also keep in mind about your analogy. "Harlem" from 1971 was pre Philly (Philly started in 1972) and wasn't out of Motown though has some familiar beats. So the "missing link" comment may be more spot on than you know. In any event, it stands on its own while at the same time shares a place in the "pre disco / disco sounds club".

I have more early oddities like this in my collection... just have to dig them up and post for comments.

Still a fun carefree tune even if dancers would loose interest after a while. Good thing it is only 3 minutes + and was never a 12" disc.

Your example of "Baby Come Back" falls on the other side of the fence and leans more towards Beach Music to my ears.

Personally, I am more of an old school High Energy (not the post 1985 NRG stuff) of the late 70s type person at heart.

Eric

[Disco Funk]

Originally Posted by Huffstutler

Disco Funk

True on many points. But also keep in mind about your analogy. "Harlem" from 1971 was pre Philly (Philly started in 1972) and wasn't out of Motown though has some familiar beats. So the "missing link" comment may be more spot on than you know. In any event, it stands on its own while at the same time shares a place in the "pre disco / disco sounds club".

I have more early oddities like this in my collection... just have to dig them up and post for comments.

Still a fun carefree tune even if dancers would loose interest after a while. Good thing it is only 3 minutes + and was never a 12" disc.

Your example of "Baby Come Back" falls on the other side of the fence and leans more towards Beach Music to my ears.

Personally, I am more of an old school High Energy (not the post 1985 NRG stuff) of the late 70s type person at heart.

Eric

Thanks for the feedback. The philly I was referring actually stretches back into the 60s. The Delfonics had a number of uptempo dance numbers, and there were various projects like Electric Indian ('69) that were done in Philadelphia in Sigma and the various other philly studios using the MFSB guys. I think it was in 1971 that they put out Family Affair and Nation Time under the moniker 'The Family'. There was also a track called 'Do The Robot' by The Family that was dance oriented from '71 featuring the MFSB cats. And I think there were some uptempo numbers from the Continental IV on Jay Walking that came out around that time, produced by Bobby Martin. I'm a philly music fanatic, so I've been studying the progression of the sound of the groove as it evolved from that late 60s period, where they were doing Motown-esque uptempo beats, to what would lead things into a new direction. The paradigm shift in dance music, as far as I see it, came with the release of Al Green's Lets Stay Together in '71. What happened was that in Spring 72, when the Philly guys were laying down I'll Be Around, drummer Earl Young (who was a lead singer in the Trammps as well), decided to emulate the Al Green beat by accentuating the snare with a tom drum. I think by the end of that year they were doing 4 on the floor beats (kick drum on every beat, snare only on 2nd and 4th, as opposed to Bohannon on tracks like Stop & Go and Pimp Walk, who hit the snare on every beat, a la Motown). Of course, hind sight is 20/20. Many DJs were playing all kinds of tunes from various genres, and with various sounds, because disco really hadn't been pigeon-holed exactly yet. But the Philly sound certainly was the direction the music headed, because many early 70s producers were trying to emulate the philly sound, from what I've read. Other influences like latin and afro beats eventually were incorporated into the disco sound, but it was the jazzy, soul funk that came out of Philly that was the blueprint for disco. For me, anyway. :) Disco Funk

[Huffstutler]

Disco Funk.. isn't some of what you cite considered by some as Northern Soul?

Here is another entry by me to consider:

"Westbound #9" by Flambing Ember 1970

A friend mentioned the following to also consider having seen them on various old lists yet they seem to be a stretch. Some may have disco elements?

"Apache" - Jorgen Ingmann 1961
"Midnight Confession" - Grass Roots 1968
"Too Much Talk" - Paul Revere and the Raider 1968
"You Haven't Seen My Love" - The Ones 1968 (unusual Motown entry for the time)

Comments..

Eric

[Disco Funk]

Originally Posted by Huffstutler

Disco Funk.. isn't some of what you cite considered by some as Northern Soul?

Here is another entry by me to consider:

"Westbound #9" by Flambing Ember 1970

A friend mentioned the following to also consider having seen them on various old lists yet they seem to be a stretch. Some may have disco elements?

"Apache" - Jorgen Ingmann 1961
"Midnight Confession" - Grass Roots 1968
"Too Much Talk" - Paul Revere and the Raider 1968
"You Haven't Seen My Love" - The Ones 1968 (unusual Motown entry for the time)

Comments..

Eric

I guess that's where it can become confusing because Northern Soul is a term used to describe music stretching from the mid 60s or so to the mid to late 70s. As far as I can tell, the only common thing about the tracks are the fact that they are high bpm tracks that are more soul than funk-based, although for me, good disco is based in funk. There are other elements on top of it, but funk is the one thing that makes it danceable. But going back to Northern Soul, I guess one could also say that Northern Soul and proto-disco tracks are one and the same? There are a number of proto and pre disco tunes that aren't the uptempo kind as well.

Westbound #9 could be considered it, I suppose. There are a lot of HDH label material that could fall under the pre-disco Northern Soul umbrella, but they're also throwbacks to the Motown groove as well. Tracks like Cheba by The 8th Day, and even Blackbird by The Manhattans from 1972 are some nice proto-disco tunes.

Disco Funk

[Huffstutler]

Originally Posted by Disco Funk

I guess that's where it can become confusing because Northern Soul is a term used to describe music stretching from the mid 60s or so to the mid to late 70s.

Westbound #9 could be considered it, I suppose.

Disco Funk

Actually, I wasn't placing "Westbound #9" under the Northern Soul umbrella but as a candidate for one of the "first" disco(ish) songs.

I have seen elsewhere in threads that you are partial to Funk hence your screen name but Disco is more than just that. You can't paint disco music with one color but a rainbow of different flavors, funk being one of them.

I am sure a "first" would truly be difficult if not impossible to pinpoint because it was a transitional process. The Philly sounds had a major influence as did the period just before it that encompasses Northern Soul, Motown, and high spirited R&B numbers. But it is fun trying to find that holy grail of songs

Whatever... whenever we find it I am sure it will fall between 1971-1972 but can be a year or two either way as we have seen what some consider true disco songs in 1973 and some psudo songs in 1970. Right now there are no wrong answers unless you say "Maple Leaf Rag" from 1899 was a candidate.

Exciting isn't it!

Eric S. Huffstutler
Richmond, VA

[Huffstutler]

Also I must note that after over 30 years no one has come up with a "first", do you think we will find it now?

Instead of looking for a "song" maybe we need to be looking for a "sound" - who penned the first composite disco sound whose components include the 4/4 beat, strings, bpm, etc... Some will say Barry White but who was he influenced by? Others will say Gamble & Huff but who were they influenced by? When did all of the pieces come together to make what we consider traditional disco opposed to psudo disco?

If we can find the first person maybe we can find the first song.

Eric

[SUPERGONZO]

Westbound #9 Disco???? Nah, now were definitely stretching it a bit.
It seems alot of posts now are geared towards " I found it!!! And I found it earlier than you!!"". I agree Huff...its not that easy. May never be found.

I don't think the answer is that simple, I agree with the Philly blend of styles as the nearest heir apparent to the Disco Crown. I still dont agree with "Shaft" it being a soundtrack, and its too funk, too Issac Hayes, to be disco. There's no way you can convince me that Issac hayes was thinking about discoteques when that song was made, even though it may have been eventually played in them. He was making a song for a movie, and thats all theres is to it.
Ditto for "Soul Makossa" Manu Dibango


If I were to jump into the "I found it!!" category.... I would still vote for

Barry White... just about anything early he did
Smarty Pants "Armed and Extremely Dangerous"
TSOP...MSFB
Loves Theme...again Barry