How Important Were Gay Clubs To Disco Music?

[QUINNY]

Zeca: I hear what you're saying, but we're discussing almost 30 years ago. Back then, we did live in very seperate spaces and places.

[Greg Wilson]

There might not have been a visible gay scene in the UK during the 70's, but one particular DJ, who happened to be gay, was hugey influential.

Ian Levine, who broke more records on the Northern Soul scene than anyone (via his legendary venue, Blackpool Mecca), was the first DJ in this country to start making his own records, years ahead of everyone else. These early Northern 'tailor-mades' provided him with the blueprint for his virtual invention of the Hi-Energy genre.

Ian Levine would become the best known DJ on the UK gay scene when he moved to London to take over at Heaven.

The Northern Soul scene provided the roots for another highly respected gay DJ, the late Les Cokell, who was the last DJ to spin a record at the famous Twisted Wheel in Manchester. Les would later become the main DJ on the North-West gay scene, working at Heroes in Manchester.

[Forrrce]

Dave Godin, the godfather of northern soul and the man who, I recall reading, played Shock's 'I Think I Love You' to much disdain from his traditional crowd, stood his ground and declared it a 'modern soul record'...was (is?) gay, I was assured.

[QUINNY]

Greg & Forrrce: This is all very interesting, but does it mean that Gay clubs had a big influence in Disco music? Sure, one can see these people had some influence, but how far did it travel in terms of absolute numbers/percentages?

Ian Levine had some influence in what I played, 'cos yes, I did play some of his productions for a short while. None of his records ever made my 'must play' list. Most of his productions that I ever heard were a fair stab, but ultimately lacked something and sounded rather like poor man's copies to my ears. Some just sounded downright awkward. I did admire him for what he did though in terms of actually making records.

Dave Godin obviously had his say in the likes of Blues & Soul and I suspect he may have reviewed records that I'd eventually play, but is that having an influence, is he a club and would it have been his gayness that influenced me? I can't think it would have been, as anything on the Northern Soul scene, no matter how loosely connected, was a warning sign to avoid, rather than embrace, for me and most of my Southern DJ contemporaries. They went their way, we went ours.

[jazz_pilgrim]

Originally Posted by PaulC

Disco has always been an important part of gay culture, just as it has in America!

PaulC

From the experience gained on your travels, would you say there were big differences in the sort of music played in the London gay clubs as compared with that played in the US clubs? Or was it very similar?

And secondly, would you say that the gay clubs had more influence in the US than the UK, or is it about the same?

:)

[infrasound]

I agree with Marky - "first the gays"! :) Seriously, I would say that gay PEOPLE were more influential to disco than gay clubs were. Even today, with the "advances" in gay rights (don't get me started) there aren't nearly as many gay clubs (gay-owned/operated) as there are straight clubs. But market analyists & economist types have noticed that gay people are trendsetters (such an ugly word) and corporations & businessmen use our community to predict the "next big thing" (another ugly term). I'm sure that was happening in the 70s when gay people were coming together to dance in various clubs, with their funky music....and they brought their women friends along...and then came the straight men, and then came the boom of straight dance clubs.

I wonder if this is a typical pattern in less capitalist nations than the US?

I see this sort of thing happening today. In my town, for instance, we don't have any gay clubs. If you want to go to a gay club, you have to drive about 30 miles to a city. So we make our own clubs in our living rooms and basements and studios, etc. These parties always start out predominantly queer. Eventually, more and more mostly straight women (who are usually welcome) start coming, then bringing their boyfriends (who, granted, are usually more forward-thinking than the average hetero male)...and before you know it, the crowd's totally mixed. Then what happens is the queer people want to create another space that's 100% queer-friendly (because the more straight men that come the less unified the crowd becomes), and by then the straight men are throwing a similar-styled party in a straight club with similar music but for a crowd that's mostly hetero!! And guess whose party gets written about and hyped in the local newspaper and city-guides???

[DISCODISK]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

Dave Godin obviously had his say in the likes of Blues & Soul and I suspect he may have reviewed records that I'd eventually play, but is that having an influence, is he a club and would it have been his gayness that influenced me?


eventually being the key word here quinny for the type of d.j you were



I can't think it would have been, as anything on the Northern Soul scene, no matter how loosely connected, was a warning sign to avoid, rather than embrace, for me and most of my Southern DJ contemporaries. They went their way, we went ours.

and what way DID you go quinny? well basically NOWHERE, by your own admission you worked in mainstream clubs mixing pop and the latest chart disco hits,you didnt buy imports as you thought they were too expensive,how easy and safe was that!and you plodded along like that for 15 years all the work was done for you by the upfront d.js that established those records,everybody dancing round their handbags 'easy life' not that theres anything wrong with mainstream clubs you understand every town has to have one
you cant find it in your vocablary to give anyone in this country any praise for achievement from whatever musical form they pioneered,we live in one of the best countries in the world musically and clubwise not just then but now, all because people through hard work and passion for music they make things happen be it through club promotion,scouring the states for unreleased tracks,compiling compilations with love,bringing music to the radio or tracking down acts to bring over to play here with many people loosing money in the process.your contribution to all of this is winge and moan.
so ill ask you what influence YOU had in this country? or shall i answer for you ill say zero,you seem to have set yourself up here as the spokesman for 'us brits' telling the rest of the world how it was here,in truth you have no idea how it was because youre so blinkered you actually end up telling how it 'wasnt' because you wernt there.
as for this latest topic i dont have you down as 'gay friendly' at all and you have probibly never walked past a gay club let alone BEEN in one,so i wont get into this with you, you know what i mean the sky is blue..no its not its red
anyway thankfully the rest of the board are enjoying the music organising events and getting out and about and you just sit there bitter,your moaning,insults and constant provocation is becoming tiresome.

[Greg Wilson]

infrasound: I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

The same thing applies to the black community, who are also 'trendsetters' in our society and know how to throw a great party.

This has been going on for years and years, there are exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking, the major advances in club culture have been down to either the black or the gay communities.

It normally takes straight white people (especially straight white males) a little while to catch up with things.

This is also the case with music and entertainment in general.

[zeca azevedo]

:D

[Greg Wilson]

Hi Zeca: Of course I can't speak for every country, but with regards to the history of club culture in Western society, you'll usually find black people or gay people right in the thick of things when it comes to the innovations.

Remember that I was talking generally, and tried to qualify my comments by stating that there are exceptions to this.

The site were currently on is a Disco site, much of the formulative aspects of this genre came from blacks and gays. Don't you agree?

As a straight white male myself I'm only being honest, and saying it as I see it. Maybe this will change now that the dynamics of our society are changing. I wasn't suggesting that a social group is inferior or superior full stop, everyone has their own skills and specialities. Hopefully, as we move further into the 21st Century, these issues of race and gender won't be as pronounced as they undoubtedly were during the 20th Century.

Sorry if I offended you, it wasn't intentional.

[zeca azevedo]

:D

[QUINNY]

DISCODISK: People, Glasshouses, Stones. Thanks for the character assassination, I was wondering when you'd show up. I'll repeat this for the hard of hearing or those that may be visually challenged. DD, take your blinkers off dear chap.

Am I over critical? Oh dear isn't that allowed?
I admit I always worked relatively mainstream clubs. I have never denied it I had to make a living - er, is that a crime?
I admit that I've been to very few Gay clubs - why would I want to; 'cos I loved HiNRG music?
I admit that I put MY point of view. Not the clever, researched, politically correct, safe point of view, but mine. If you disagree - that's fine, so long as you don't do what you did above. That was totally out of order. I expected better of you. DD, Surely you can disagree without getting personal, otherwise that puts the moral high ground fairly and squarely with me and YOU look like the sad, bitter, twisted one. BTW: I'm neither bitter nor twisted. Just jaded.

I will repeat once again, the influence of Gay clubs on me was miniscule. I don't believe that more than 10% of the music I played was broken in Gay clubs, if that. I also believe that my experience, being as I was, in the mainstream, would be typical for a whole lot of folks. Namely, the silent majority.

As for others doing the hard work for me and not taking chances. Please tell that to the countless managers that used to give me hell for playing too much new material. A new record still had to find favour with an audience, whether it was one day old or 3 months. No records were ever made that had automatic recognition. The safe, lazy DJs were the ones who only bought a record once it made the charts....that wasn't me. It's all relative isn't it?

So far as imports being too expensive. They bloody well were. Just in case you don't have a grasp of economics. Quinny works as full time DJ (not part-time and earning damned good money working 9-5). Earns, lets say, £100 per week. Quinny spends £40 per week on records; him happy bunny 'cos he can work as DJ and afford to live. Quinny spends £80 per week 'cos he has to have latest imports, him very unhappy 'cos although he work, he no have anywhere to live and little food to eat. Eventually, Quinny have nowhere to work or live, 'cos after a few months him dead!!!
BTW: When I worked in Spain every record I played was an import. It's all relative,eh?

DD, if you've never been a long term full time DJ, then don't you dare call anyone who has been, safe and unadventurous. Could you live life on the edge for 15 years?

The world is full of relatively poor innovators. Even our dear beloved country falls into that category.

Zeca: I am still an idealist, even at my advancing years, but speaking pragmatically, we will never all live together in peace and harmony. We are all ghettoised, even on these boards and as perfectly demonstrated by DD above, some of us have a deep seated hatred for others.

[Greg Wilson]

Hi Zeca,
Firstly, the respect is mutual and I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment ‘Let’s Live Together In Peace’.

However, I don’t think that denying this part of our history is the way to bring people together. It’s vital that the role the black and gay communities played in shaping our culture is fully acknowledged. I don’t think we’re all the same, and I wouldn’t want it to be that way, for me it’s a case of viva le difference.

As I said, it’s a new century now, and maybe we've moved on. Dance music has played a major role in promoting unity, but we shouldn’t forget that this is a relatively recent development, and unfortunately there are still lots of racists, sexists and homophobes out there.

Given the heading of this thread, and the fact that I was following on from infrasounds’ comments (and also that this is a Disco music site), I didn’t expect that my post would be taken as referring to the whole world or to the history of music, right back to Classical. I apologise if I didn’t give specific examples.

Obviously Classical music was a white European form, but this was at a time when black people were being sold as slaves, so they were hardly in the position to contribute. I’m sure there are gay influences within the Classical genre though, although it would need an expert in this field to comment further.

Looking at the 20th Century as a whole, I’d argue that the 3 most important musical developments all come from black sources – Jazz, Rhythm & Blues and Hip Hop (make that 4 and add Reggae). You might disagree, but it’s difficult to find a subsequent style of music that hasn’t been influenced from these directions. Country would be an exception, dating back to the Folk tradition, and there’s the Avant Garde side of things to take into account. Electronic music would also be seen as originating with white musicians, but that was usually more to do with the technology used rather than the style of music played (which draws from the whole spectrum - Classical through to Rock).

If you look at the most successful band of the popular era, The Beatles, I’m sure you’re aware that they’re rooted in black music (recording a number of songs by black musicians on their early albums). They also had a gay manager, who was pivotal to the whole phenomenon. Further to this, Bob Wooler, the legendary DJ from the Cavern, who was a major supporter in their pre-fame days, was also gay (as were a number of people around the Merseybeat scene in early 60’s Liverpool). However, they could hardly be open about this fact, homosexuality being illegal in the UK until 1967.

Samba is obviously a musical style of black influence. All forms of Rock, including Psychedelic (of which The Beatles played a main role) go back to Rock & Roll and Rock & Roll derives from Rhythm & Blues. The main icon of the Psychedelic era is a black man, Jimi Hendrix.

I’m certainly not trying to play down the role of the great white musicians who’ve created so much wonderful music, but I’m sure that most would give props to the black musicians who inspired so many of them in the first place.

The influence of gay people in all avenues of the entertainment industry is something that can’t be denied. For many gays this (along with the fashion industry) was one of the few areas where they found a level of acceptance in an otherwise extremely homophobic world.

Remember that the ‘typecasting’ you mentioned, was the result of blacks and gays, in their various ways, adapting to social factors that wouldn’t allow them to exist on an equal footing with their straight white contemporaries. The fact that they made such major contributions to popular culture, despite all this, is truly remarkable. Many people would suggest that it’s because of such negative prejudice that they invented their own new positive approaches, which were later adopted into mainstream culture – for every action there’s an equal and opposite reaction.

I hadn’t expected to have to defend my position in such a way, my original comments had more to do with clubs and partying than the overall picture.

Once again, sorry for causing any confusion, hopefully I’ve clarified myself. There’s nothing wrong with us agreeing to disagree, that’s what it’s all about, but given that you were quite critical of what I said, and asked me how I could validate my comments, I needed to fully respond.

Peace and love,

Greg

[DISCODISK]

[quote="QUINNY"]DISCODISK: People, Glasshouses, Stones. Thanks for the character assassination, I was wondering when you'd show up.



i kind of knew youd be expecting me i wonder why i should think this?




Am I over critical? Oh dear isn't that allowed?




totally over critical about everything and everyone but of course its allowed but if it wasnt youd have nothing to say!





I admit I always worked relatively mainstream clubs. I have never denied it I had to make a living - er, is that a crime?
I admit that I've been to very few Gay clubs - why would I want to; 'cos I loved HiNRG music?




here we go again gay=high energy :lol:





That was totally out of order. I expected better of you. DD, Surely you can disagree without getting personal





youve been getting rather personal yourself with board members over the last couple of months you dont see it but the ball always comes from your court





as for others doing the hard work for me and not taking chances. Please tell that to the countless managers that used to give me hell for playing too much new material. A new record still had to find favour with an audience, whether it was one day old or 3 months. No records were ever made that had automatic recognition. The safe, lazy DJs were the ones who only bought a record once it made the charts....that wasn't me. It's all relative isn't it?





you remember as well as i do in the mid to late 70s a large proportion of big disco records smashed into the pop charts on release that wasnt radio 1's doing because peter powell and the like never even had a chance to play them it all happened so fast,its also worth mentioning that radio 1 never uttered the word disco till around the time that you first noticed something was happening with music 6 months after saturday night fever when the word had been on lots of peoples lips for 2/3 years





as far as imports being too expensive. They bloody well were. Just in case you don't have a grasp of economics. Quinny works as full time DJ (not part-time and earning damned good money working 9-5). Earns, lets say, £100 per week. Quinny spends £40 per week on records; him happy bunny 'cos he can work as DJ and afford to live. Quinny spends £80 per week 'cos he has to have latest imports, him very unhappy 'cos although he work, he no have anywhere to live and little food to eat. Eventually, Quinny have nowhere to work or live, 'cos after a few months him dead!!!
BTW: When I worked in Spain every record I played was an import. It's all relative,eh?DD, if you've never been a long term full time DJ, then don't you dare call anyone who has been, safe and unadventurous. Could you live life on the edge for 15 years?





KOP OUT!i always found money for the latest imports when i d.j'd or i wouldnt have bothered as i d.j'd for three reasons
enjoyment,to live and to expand my record collection.
i never d,j'd solidly for 15 years but it seems i learned more than you i had a residency in a gay club in liverpool that when i took over it couldnt have been in a worse state with a worse playlist you slowly win the peopleover change things around then you have the people eating out of your hand then YOU have the manager by the balls then if your finding your imports too expensive then its time to talk pay rise his tills are ringing he isnt gonna let you go because he knows and YOU know people are being sent in from other clubs to spy on whats going on there so if you call his bluff and it dosnt work one of the other places will give you work.
as i say if you wanted to plod along the way you did thats fine and i never said there was anything wrong with mainstream discos there had to be somewhwere for people to have stag nights and hen parties,theyre just not somewhere i wanted to spend my youth not even with free entry free drinks and free speed maybee thats just me.
where you worked realliy dosnt concern me its just your attitude and your trashing of every musical form weve ever enjoyed when you were never even a part of it remember everything mainstrean begins undeground.and because of our rich musical history today we can still go out to clubs and in many places hear most any type of music we want to,its all about working together and making it happen not trashing everything in sight.
as far as you implying you took a better path than ian levine only in your head quinny at 3 oclock in the morning while you are asleep :lol:



Zeca: I am still an idealist, even at my advancing years, but speaking pragmatically, we will never all live together in peace and harmony. We are all ghettoised, even on these boards and as perfectly demonstrated by DD above, some of us have a deep seated hatred for others.





i have no hatred for anyone quinny just lots of time for most and no time for a few

[NickNack]

Zeca,
Greg,

Thank you for being articulate and gentlemanly in your discussions, both on and off topic.

Discodisk,
Quinny,

Please, let's keep it a little, no, a lot less personal. If not, please take your issues off-line and let others respond to the topic. Come on guys, we've been here before. You know what happens if we all don't cool down.

Many thanks from your concerned moderator :) .