What WAS the deal with violins in Disco Music???

[QUINNY]

All of you must know that I'm a EuroDiscophobe. The one thing I don't understand is why violins/strings were so prominent and how/why kids got off to music containing them.
After all, the average discogoer was approx 18 - 25, probably of average intelligence and looking for more than just music, once they entered the Discotheque.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the average Joe Bloggs wouldn't have had much in the form of music appreciation classes at school and would have told anyone trying to tell him or her that classical music was the absolute best, to go play in the traffic. Violins/strings were strongly associated with 'old fogies' music and yet Disco was supposedly the music of rebellion and youth. For example, how did 'Walter Murphy - Fifth Of Beethoven' ever get put onto a Disco's SL1200 and furthermore, actually have young people who lapped that s**t up?
Can you see where I'm coming from. How come, the youth of America especially, were suckered by this 'old time' music played by relatively old time guys, when Rock & Roll had largely succeeded in freeing the young from their parents' musical conceptions and preferences up until that point? At least (Jazz) Funk was largely small ensemble based and Jazz had always had a bad boy/anti-establishment image that could legitimately appeal to yoof looking to piss their parents off; but a semi classical sounding, sweet, properly played, tuneful, pan generational opus that was much of what passed for Disco......give me a break!
Disco was the old geezers revenge, no?

Please tell us if you know, why the hell did so much disco product feature strings so prominently? Was it a US Musician's Union ruling that insisted on bandmasters and string musicians getting work, otherwise the records/labels would be banned/black balled, or what?

Good Times would have been even better without the strings, don't ya think?

[DISCODISK]

QUINNY perhaps you should have gone to woodstock :roll:

[Forrrce]

Quinny, your anti-string stance is pretty hardcore but I don't reckon there was much of a hidden agenda at play. Think of some of the earlier disco records which hit overground, like 'Love's Theme', 'The Hustle', et al - they were records made by older men from an R&B background with a penchant for arrangement and orchestrating. You know that Motown was the R&B sound of America before disco came along and their occasional reliance on a classical backing must have influenced the minds of many emerging producers and arrangers. Isaac Hayes, Gamble & Huff, etc., the list goes on - I just think it was more a reflection of the times than anything else. Sure, some otherwise good records were compromised by weak string arrangments, but when implemented correctly, strings can add anything from tension to emotion and not have the listener running for the sick bucket. I don't think 'Good Times' (or any Chic track) suffered at all from token orchestration, it was merely spice (incidentally, did you that 'Good Times' had a percussion track that was never used - but may not have sounded good in the final product, maybe??). Not a disco record per se, Quinny, but think of Luther Ingram Orchestra's mighty 'Exus Trek' - would that be quite the same mighty whirlpool of vigour sans strings?

[NickNack]

The majority of the R&B/Soul/Motown I grew up with was heavily orchestrated. Geez, listen to any Temptations' ballad and it's almost symphonic. Can't speak for anyone else but I liked and like my music "full" sounding.

As for Jazz being "rebellious" --- when I was younger Jazz was the "old fogies" music. It was the music the elders put on when they wanted the kids out of the way. Talk about pissing a teen/young adult off?

As for "Good Times" sounding better w/o strings: I DON'T THINK SO. And since when does good music only belong to the educated masses? Joe Bloggs --- I must be one cause I'm sure lacking all those music appreciation classes and know little to none about classical music. I do know this: I like some classical music when I hear it and I've ALWAYS loved my strings. Maybe it's my "drug-addled, 24/7-working, early-morning partying brain". :P

[paul]

Oh Quinny. I just love it when you stir the pot 8)
I concur with Nicky and the others on much of what was said. When I was young, dumb and fulla cum, Jazz was for the geriatric set.
I love the string arrangement found in Disco. I guess the fact that I enjoy some "classical" music didn't hurt my appreciation for strings in Disco. More important though is syncopation. When done right, the arrangement of a string section infused into the other parts of the music gives a song much more depth. As a result, I can enjoy it as much now as I did 20 plus years ago. "Loving I s Really My Game" is a perfect example of this. Listen to the crap that passes for pop music now. Simple continuos monotonous sounds. And the music industry wonders why sales are slipping. I guess even the "kids" today aren't willing to part with cash for stuff they'll be bored with the next week.

[JussiK]

Drama and cinematic effect. Listen to dance music of today, especially stuff coming from Europe - like the wonderful "Not A Sinner", "Tomorrow" or "Menage A Trois" from the brand new Alcazar cd ALCAZARIZED ( THE summer cd ). The strings are there either proper or in synth form. It's the drama and the cinematic effect. It's always been like that in popular music, when you need emotion bring on the violins. What good would a sensuous Sergio Mendes piece be without strings or a moody Isaac Hayes composition? The MFSB stuff sure would not have sounded the same with just brass, and that music was not seen as generic old farts stuff was it? And nor is it now :-)

[efunk_adelic]

[quote="paul"]When I was young, dumb and fulla cum quote]

I think I had the same problem Paul :lol: :lol:

This really is a great topic when you think about it. I've never been a fan of Classical Music. I'm not sure how to deal with it either. Other than "turn this crap off" ... I know that
is not an open minded attitude. It was never brought to my attention. My mother listened to Sergio Mendes, Buddy Miles, Doors, Led Zeppelin, and lots and lots of R&B. I found emotion early on in pop music. I think the first record to hit me was "Papa Was A Rolling Stone" (Temps)... and "We've Only Just Begun" (Carpenters)... How could you not appreciate these songs? :-?

I can understand Quinny why you wouldn't like it (violins) because... I know people who really really hate Jazz, because they hate hearing the Saxophone... Remember when Kenny G was in his prime... Vomit Vomit Vomit :P

I believe you hate just euro-disco..? am I right.
or is American Disco OK w/violins like

"Ain't No Stoppin' Us Now" McFadden & Whitehead...

I guess i'll wait for a reply.

[QUINNY]

Thanx guys for your take on things.
You still haven't really explained why, though.
I appreciate that strings had had a large influence in Soul and Motown, but (correct me if I'm wrong) that was pretty 'old fashioned' music by 1976. It was a sound that belonged to a different generation.
See, I hated a lot of MFSB, because of that sweet, sugary string sound. It sounded so dated and tired to my ears. I was not alone, either. Perhaps it was a Soul vs. funk thing. Funk appeals to me 'cos its so dirty and raw in comparison.
Jazz is 'old fogies music'. I guess that would be a common perception, except its very nature is not that, 'cos it is forever reinventing itself and is most definitely a music of rebellion and alternative thinking. Just what 'R&R/pop/youth culture' is supposed to be.
The cinematic gesture is an interesting one. So why had no youth music since 1963 heavily featured strings, except for bands that had just climbed up their own asses and suddenly became pompous and precious? We all know that strings didn't really belong in rock music.
It's not just a case of "I like strings or I don't like them", this question goes much deeper than that.
P.S. I too was a Joe Bloggs and classical music never really entered my musical horizon until I hit 40. I still don't like the 'stuffiness' or the 'squareness' of it.

It's like this guys. By 1963, even though R&R had happened, the charts (i.e. pop music) were dominated by older singers and groups, then this 'new' music came out of Liverpool that changed everything. Suddenly it was hip to be young and at last the youth of the day had claimed their own music. String sections and horn sections were largely abandoned in favour of electric instruments. Youth could at last rebel through music. Disco (with strings and orchestras) was an anathema to that. So what did happen, to make a whole generation musically bow to their parents? I for one thought we'd got over that.

[efunk_adelic]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

After all, the average discogoer was approx 18 - 25, probably of average intelligence and looking for more than just music, once they entered the Discotheque.
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the average Joe Bloggs wouldn't have had much in the form of music appreciation classes at school and would have told anyone trying to tell him or her that classical music was the absolute best, to go play in the traffic. Violins/strings were strongly associated with 'old fogies' music and yet Disco was supposedly the music of rebellion and youth.
Please tell us if you know, why the hell did so much disco product feature strings so prominently? Was it a US Musician's Union ruling that insisted on bandmasters and string musicians getting work, otherwise the records/labels would be banned/black balled, or what?

Good Times would have been even better without the strings, don't ya think?

Let me see if I can make my point here.... Since you mentioned Walter Murphy (gags)... When I first heard that song... I thought it was bull... even today I think it's bull.

But if you watch the movie "Saturday Night Fever" ... do you really think the guys in that movie or in real life really gives a shit what is playing in the club when they are there for one reason?

I grew up during that age also, white guys didn't listen to disco.... nor did they like it. However, come Wednesday night they were there chasing the girls... doing what they had to do.

[nrgbeat]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

Good Times would have been even better without the strings, don't ya think?

I think the strings make "Good Times" without the strings it just wouldn't be the same record.

[Boogie Child]

I think if strings had been used on Donna Summer's "Bad Girls" album, the results would have been even better. I love the album, but it's as if Giorgio and Donna made a point of not using strings in an attempt to breakaway from the disco mold. On her TV special in late 1979, the version of the song, "Bad Girls" was filled-out with strings, and the sound was incredible. I would do anything for this version of the song.

Strings might have enhanced "Hot Stuff" as well. The 12" version has a synth/sax break that softens the effects of the guitar solo. I think that strings would accentuate the song as well. Although the song is really dance with elements of both rock and disco, Donna performed it after 1981 as a hard-rock number. As of late, she even picks-up the mike stand, a la Mick Jagger, to prove her versatility as a performer. However, the way that the song was recorded and even performed on the "Bad Girls" tour and the television special, is infinitely better with only the trace of actual rock.

[discosavvy]

Quinny: 18-25 year old disco patrons weren't "kids". But I was - I was 6 years old in 1981. That year my father bought me a nice radio with good sound quality. It seemed like every other song on the local stations had violins in it, including a good portion of the pop and soft rock, but what I remember most were the disco and soul songs they played, and also the large number of instrumentals. "I Want Your Love" by Chic was my favorite because the violins seemed to flow on forever and I didn't want the song to end. Barry White's music had the same effect on me, as did "T.S.O.P." by MFSB, "Him" by Rupert Holmes, "When Will I See You Again" by the Three Degrees, and so on. I played the radio at a low volume when it was bedtime and kept the radio on all night. After 1984 the disco and soul seemed to disappear from the stations I was listening to, but "new age" and "smooth jazz" did the same trick. In the mid-1990s I finally got to hear these songs again, remembered them instantly, and finally learned who the artists were. I was shocked to discover they were suddenly considered "oldies" as they didn't sound old to me. I know this isn't what you meant, but disco (and other violin-drenched music) made it much easier for me, as a real "kid", to "get off" to sleep. It was an ordeal to drift off before that. And it still works for me these days. Sorry for taking your question so literally :)

[PaulC]

...

[QUINNY]

Paul C; You have made the same mistake everyone does. You've totally mis-quoted me. When did I ever say that I don't like morning music. If I do write things, they are for discussion...I thought that's what a forum is all about. i.e. someone proposes something and others put their point of view arriving (or not) at some kind of concensus. Everyone's views are valid, are they not?

[PaulC]

...