Grand 12-Inches 5

[QUINNY]

Originally Posted by jam master jay

Just an update - I preordered this from Amazon last week, it was due for release April 15th, however they have emailed me telling me that they don't have it yet. They do not know when it will ship. I might just order a copy from Ebay, unless someone knows a better vendor.

It was $69.99 at Amazon - the most I have paid for any of the previous 4 volumes was $45. That surprised me a bit.

Cancel it! You're much better off buying from a European site (read Dutch site, like bol.com, de grootste mediawinkel van Nederland | Welkom for example ) and paying the shipping charges. It'll still be cheaper.

[the disco kid]

Originally Posted by markydefad

This caught my eye:




Is this the same tune as the one below??? If so, which is the correct spelling of the title??? Billboard & other sources I checked had it this way....


50) IL VELIERO ("The Sail Ship") - Lucio Battisti
(RCA- Canada 12-inch: 6:06)
9 points/ 1 chart = Montreal
BDA Top 40: n/c
DCC chart: 6 weeks on chart // Last week: #44 (-6)

Marky

there is also another version by LAMA entitled "Love On the Rocks"
it's the same song sung in english. the melody of this song always gets me no matter what language it's sung in.

[jam master jay]

Quinny - thank you!

[BenLiebrand]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

Disappointing tracklist. Where's the edge, especially with a whole year between releases, to search out missing previously un-released (to CD) gems and get the necessary permissions???? I doubt if more than a few of these tracks, are not already on compilations. I certainly have all but those few (and his re-edits Grrr annoying Ben, annoying) on other CDs. This is a Sony corporate release in my view.

Hi Quinny,

I am afraid you have a somewhat idealized view of the music business of today, therefore a small update on how things actual work:

- First I have to find who holds the rights, and be sure about this.
Small record companies tend to take risks and use without licensing.
But a major company like Sony/BMG does not want to risk being sued
by some small company because of violating copyrights.

- Then if I find the copyright owners, in 99,9% of all cases, they do not
have a master.

- Even crazier, the nice lady at the phone does not know what a master
is, does not know what processed or unprocessed is, does not know
what clipped waveforms are and thinks that anything she can rip from
anywhere (including mp3's from limewire) burnt on her 200 dollar
PC with 5 dollar CD-burner is fit to be used to press CD's from.

- Incredible as it may sound, they do not even take the trouble to send
someone to their archive (if they still have one), because the license
revenues earned for a particular track on such a specialized compilation
as Grand 12 Inches doesn't even warrant the time spent by personel
browsing through archives.

- And in a business declining 15% each year, I am lucky there are
still people who join me in this out-dated quest to preserve these
masters. I therefore can't blame them to want this release to be
broader than just a small hard-core niche market. Selling 2000
copies to a handfull of die-hards doesn't pay the bills and if the bills
aren't paid, no company will agree on participating on a next edition.

- Also some companies ask such advances on royalties that those tracks
simply can't be licensed as sales won't mount up to earning back
these advances.

- Yes a vinyl transfer is possible, but being a sound engineer for more
than 25 years, I know what is lost in cutting to vinyl, let alone trying to
get it back in a transfer. So vinyl transfers are the very last resort and
only when a decent pressing is to be found.

- Yes, there sometimes are longer versions, but if they sound crap
and a master can't be found then the choice becomes more simple.
And yes, if I do come across that better version, I'll try to convince
all involved to include it on a next edition. And Yes, many of the tracks
suggested are already on my list, but all the reasons above have
prevented them to be used so far.

So I therefore call upon you all to help me get the right masters of the right versions so a major hurdle is taken to actually getting things done.

What do you say! Wil you help?

:) Ben Liebrand

[disco1999]

Ben Liebrand
Welcome to this site, hope to see you here often in our discussions.

[QUINNY]

Hi Quinny,

I am afraid you have a somewhat idealized view of the music business of today, therefore a small update on how things actual work:

Firstly Ben, may I say how good it is of you to register and post.

Ben, I'm probably one of the few people around here who doesn't have an idealised view of the record industry, being that I too was a recording engineer for some 20 odd years (albeit on a much less grand scale). I do understand all the trouble involved in finding master tapes and who holds the rights. My main beef is that Grand 12 inches started off as a refreshing addition to the Disco compilations repertoire (and if you look back you'll see that I championed the previous 3-4 releases), but this release almost looks like it's the work of someone completely different.

First I have to find who holds the rights, and be sure about this. Small record companies tend to take risks and use without licensing. But a major company like Sony/BMG does not want to risk being sued by some small company because of violating copyrights.

Fully understood.

Then if I find the copyright owners, in 99,9% of all cases, they do not have a master.

Again fully understood. I've had the same problem myself in the past when an old customer phoned up and wanted CD copies made from a master that I first did some cassette duplication from maybe 15 years previously. Try getting back master tapes from some record/CD/Cassette duplication companies and it would be mission impossible.

Even crazier, the nice lady at the phone does not know what a master
is, does not know what processed or unprocessed is, does not know
what clipped waveforms are and thinks that anything she can rip from
anywhere (including mp3's from limewire) burnt on her 200 dollar
PC with 5 dollar CD-burner is fit to be used to press CD's from.

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I read this. The odd clipped waveform wouldn't matter would it, depending on how severe?

Incredible as it may sound, they do not even take the trouble to send someone to their archive (if they still have one), because the license revenues earned for a particular track on such a specialized compilation as Grand 12 Inches doesn't even warrant the time spent by personel browsing through archives.

Don't tell me you're trying to license tracks for $10. I don't suppose even $10,000 is worth some of them getting out of bed for, when just 20 years ago a compilation earned them much more than that (but there were so many fewer compilations about)!

And in a business declining 15% each year, I am lucky there are still people who join me in this out-dated quest to preserve these masters. I therefore can't blame them to want this release to be broader than just a small hard-core niche market. Selling 2000 copies to a handfull of die-hards doesn't pay the bills and if the bills
aren't paid, no company will agree on participating on a next edition.

Ben, there's broad and B R O A D.
Vol. 5 strikes me as being only just short of lowest common denominator (when so many tracks have been released before on CD). Didn't you know that, for example, Quick -Rhythm Of The Jungle had already been put out, just last year? I know that shouldn't automatically preclude it, BUT if that were true of many of the tracks (which it is), it would kinda negate the need for your release. See the problem?

Also some companies ask such advances on royalties that those tracks simply can't be licensed as sales won't mount up to earning back
these advances.

See above about not getting out of bed for less than $10,000 (whatever the figure is). I've never understood the mentality of those people and they've had that mentality ever since the year dot. I'd have thought most record companies and publishers would be more accommodating in today's shrinking market, but we all know how the record industry's collective mind works.
BTW: If it's not top secret, what sort of initial press run does Grand 12 inches releases have?

Yes a vinyl transfer is possible, but being a sound engineer for more than 25 years, I know what is lost in cutting to vinyl, let alone trying to get it back in a transfer. So vinyl transfers are the very last resort and only when a decent pressing is to be found.

At last someone who agrees with me about CD vs. vinyl (you'll find a lot of vinyl junkies on this website). However, what's more important? Getting yet another copy of something that's been released umpteen times that's marginally better sound quality, or getting something out there that hasn't been on CD before? It's a tough question to answer, but personally, I'd always try and release the vinyl transfer of a sought after (commercial) rarity, than issue a better sounding copy of a much released track. Again, personally I think we place too much emphasis on sound quality nowadays. Hence we have thousands of releases of material featuring fabulous sound quality, but no real tune to speak of. I want you to exhibit your DJ tendencies in preference to your sound engineer tendencies when compiling these CDs, or at least have your DJ tendencies have the controlling input. Collectors and potential purchasers of this material tend to be music fans, NOT sound engineers. I don't want to sound harsh, but maybe you've somewhat lost your (artistic) focus.

Of course, a commercial balance has to be struck and I don't expect 'nothing but rarities'. There are too many compilations that are ultra boring and of second/third rate because of that and extinct record companies to prove it.

Yes, there sometimes are longer versions, but if they sound crap
and a master can't be found then the choice becomes more simple.
And yes, if I do come across that better version, I'll try to convince
all involved to include it on a next edition. And Yes, many of the tracks
suggested are already on my list, but all the reasons above have
prevented them to be used so far.

Fully understood. Maybe you need to lower your sights and accept that perfect masters of at least 50% of what you'd like to release, probably don't exist.

So I therefore call upon you all to help me get the right masters of the right versions so a major hurdle is taken to actually getting things done.

What do you say! Wil you help?

What would a record company executive say? "For a cut".
If I thought I could help I would. Others on this site may well have some tame friends, in the biz.

Find the master to Lavias - Do You Wanna Dance instrumental, release it on vol.6 and I'd be your friend for life, even if you didn't want me to be.

[needlefingers]

Thank you Ben for joining the discussion and discomusic.com.

As for Quinny, I am reminded of that scene towards the end of The Wizard Of Oz....


"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."




Someday we will all pull out our Meco The Wizard Of Oz albums and sing in unison a rousing chorus of Ding-Dong! The Witch Is Dead!

[BenLiebrand]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

[B]
Ben, there's broad and B R O A D.

Again Quinny,

Even with all your experience from years ago, I am battling the odds right now with uncooperative uninterested record companies who care for product and not for music. And who are not thrilled by compilations for niche markets.

You have seen the final tracklist for edition 5, well let me show you what my wishlist was, so you can shed some tears as well over what was impossible to obtain due to all reasons previously mentioned.

There is no way of improving this situation by wining or nagging about what is not realistic. What IS realistic is that a series like Grand 12 Inches becomes a benchmark for quality (by not settling for vinyl transfers that are only 50% OK) with a healthy balance between known and lesser known tracks both in the very best quality. Thus resulting in healthy sales and a subsequent willing attitude amongst participating record companies.

The fact that some tracks appear elsewhere is also of no importance when the master offered by me is of greater quality or even better, a true and direct master copy of the original analog production tapes.

2 examples,
Robin S - Show me Love came form an original production DAT sent to me by Stonebridge himself, beating the quality of most CD copies in Europe,which originated from an early and widespread vinyl rip.
Michael Jackson's Billy Jean & Thriller came from the original 80's analog production masters beating the quality of all subsequently overprocessed and widely available copies.

So here is the list:

Advance - take me to the top
Alisha - Baby Talk (Extended Dance Mix)
Andy Williams-Love Story (Where Do I Begin) (Long Version)
Art Of Noise - Beat Box (Division 0, 1 ,3 or 4)
Ashford and Simpson - Found A Cure
Automat - Automat The Rise+Advence+Genus
Baby O - In The Forest
BobbyThurston-YouGotWhatItTakes
Boney M - Rasputin 12" version
Cerrone - tripping on the moon
Cock Robin - The Promise You Made
Cori Josias - Takin' It Straight
Crusaders - Streetlife
Depeche Mode-just Can't Get Enough live
Destination - moveOnUp
Frantique - Strut your funky stuff
Gary Byrd And The GB Experience-The Crown
Gary's Gang-Keep On Dancin'
GarysGang-KeepMakingMusic
GarysGang-runaway
Harlow -Take Off
Herb Alpert - Beyond
Herb Alpert - Rotation
Kano - I'm Ready
Karen Young - Hot Shot
Lionel Richie - All Night Long
Love De-Luxe - Here Comes That Sound Again
Man Parrish - Hip Hop Bebop RMX
Man Parrish-Six Simple Synths
Matt Bianco- Matt's Mood
NV - It's alright
Players Association TurnTheMusicUp
Poussez ComeOnAndDoIt
Poussez-NeverGonnaSayGoodbye
Propaganda - Dr. Mabuse
Propaganda - P-Machinery
Propaganda-Das Testament Des Mabuse [Dr. Mabuse]
Propaganda-P-Machinery
Randy Crawford - Streetlife
Rick James - Glow/Glow-reprise
RockersRevenge-WalkingOnSinshine
Shannon-GiveMeTonight
Man Parrish - Six Simple Synthesizers
Sparks - Beat The Clock
Strikers - body music
Tantra - hills of katmandu
The Quick- Rhythm Of The Jungle
The RAH Band - Clouds Across The Moon
TheThreeDegrees-TheRunner(Extended)
Unique - what i got is what is you need

Ah! Cerrone's Love In C Minor! is on edition 5 instead of Trippin' On The Moon! You guessed it, No master for Trippin' on the Moon. Not even at Cerrone's Malligator office, and yes, I spoke to them personally.

Want to make a difference? Then help me obtain those rare versions in digital quality! And let me know what you are looking for.

Ben Liebrand
liebrand@euronet.nl

[ashley_k]

Hello Ben,

Thanks for providing us with some great comps with excellent sound quality too, I totally understand the problems and limitation involved with putting Grand 12 inches together, plus the idea behind it and the direction this takes Grand 12 inches, the tracks on Grand 12 inches are not always to my liking and as with most comps you end up with tracks you already have, but the improvement in sound quality on these tracks has really been impressive and made it totally worth having the tracks again with the improved sound.

I definitely think it's worth the effort to keep the sound quality as high as possible, and don't listen to suggestion that the odd clipped waveform wouldn't matter, it does and it's most undesirable as you know.

The Grand 12 inches series is never going to be perfect or for that matter please everyone, but I personally just think to myself four very nice CDs with top sound quality at a reasonable price, and with that in mind it seem churlish to complain about any aspect of Grand 12 inch.

As Grand 12 inches is in association with Sony/BMG if you could arrange to get me a set of keys for the Sony/BMG tape archive as I need to have a look for the better short version master tape of "Coming To You Live" by Charles Earland, instead of the less good dull sounding 6 min LP/12 inch, it's the least I can do to help you out and get it on the next Grand 12 inches.

ashley_k


just part of my Grand 12 inches wish list:
Donald Banks - Status Quo (US 12" long mix)
Charles Earland - Coming To You Live (short version - not the dull LP/12" version)
Cerrone - Music Of Life (the LP version in master quality and not over compressed)
Rene & Angela - Banging the Boogie (the 12" LP/long version)
Loose Ends - Dial 999 (12" dub mix)
Eumir Deodato - Pina Colada (12" promo mix)
Brothers Johnson - Ain't We Funkin' Now (US 12" long mix with the break)


and Kids just say NO to drugs, mp3s, audio clipping and over compression...

[QUINNY]

Not to harp on about things, but surely you place yourself in an almost impossible catch 22 situation, by assuming that a (near) pristine master exists for all the tracks you'd like to include on these comps?

Do you actually re-master or do you just do straight un EQ'd transfers?

Is there absolutely no way that a vinyl rip can be made to sound acceptable with some judicious EQing and subtle snap, crackle and pop removal? Other people manage to get some fair results.


I guess the one major problem has been the shift away from the old formats of cassette and vinyl to all things digital and many of the once large pressing plants and duplication plants going out of business. At that point getting anything back became almost impossible (especially if clients weren't informed) 'cos accountants acting as official receivers wouldn't have given a rat's ass about anything intrinsic.