Grand 12-Inches 5

[BrunoRepublic]

Ben: I've sent you a PM.

[BenLiebrand]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

Is there absolutely no way that a vinyl rip can be made to sound acceptable with some judicious EQing and subtle snap, crackle and pop removal? Other people manage to get some fair results.

Sure it is possible to get fair results if listened to without comparison, but if compared to the original even a great vinyl transfer is no substitute.
So when at all possible I'll go the extra mile and remind who needs reminding that they also got into this business because of the music and not because of "product".

:) Ben

[RobbaDobba]

Ben!

Great that you're here, and are gracious enough to explain your side of things and ask for our input on further editions!

You and I have had some kind e-mail exchanges, and I am glad you can be here to explain/defend your choices and predicaments.

These sets are truly top-notch and a joy to listen to. Many's the case where I own a song two or three times over, and your mastering beats all others.

In this age of CD's hovering near death, please keep doing what you're doing. And thanks.

--Rob

[QUINNY]

I definitely think it's worth the effort to keep the sound quality as high as possible, and don't listen to suggestion that the odd clipped waveform wouldn't matter, it does and it's most undesirable as you know.

Not true.
Why? Because most of the tracks we're talking about were recorded in analogue, where clipping was a way of life. Engineers would push analogue levels waaaaay into the red (in order to get maximum sound to noise ratio, even with dolby A, they still did it) and that made it absolutely certain that waveforms would have been severely clipped and compressed. Add brick wall limiting at the mastering stage in many cases and....voila. In other words we're not talking about pristine sound in the first place. The early Digital recorders weren't that great sounding in absolute terms, neither (too many artefacts compared with today's technology). So getting too precious with these master tapes is in one way, somewhat fatuous, 'cos they're already a pig's ear (relatively speaking). Less of a pig's ear than vinyl, but nonetheless.....

Now, seriously over doing levels on a digital copy of that wouldn't help, but the odd push over 0dB never did anything any harm (in digital parlance anything over 0dB digital level is considered clipped), so long as the average level was kept reasonably low. DAT tapes were surprisingly forgiving at times and a good engineer would know just how much he or she, could get away with.

[QUINNY]

Sure it is possible to get fair results if listened to without comparison, but if compared to the original even a great vinyl transfer is no substitute.

Surely a good mastering engineer could get results that come very, very close?

So when at all possible I'll go the extra mile and remind who needs reminding that they also got into this business because of the music and not because of "product".
:) Ben

There, you have the advantage over all of us. In a strange way, your quest for the perfect master and NOT issuing tracks IS akin to putting product before music, as you're putting forward technical perfection as being more important than musical perfection. I'm not so sure that is absolutely the right thing to do, but as you're the guy doing it, it's your perogative, totally.

Ben, when would you cut your losses and give up the searching? Never/ever?

[markydefad]

Originally Posted by the disco kid

Marky

there is also another version by LAMA entitled "Love On the Rocks"
it's the same song sung in english. the melody of this song always gets me no matter what language it's sung in.

Thanks for the info tdk!!!

I only know "Love On The Rocks" from it's inclusion on one of the RtP parties....I know it was a big Saint track...but I'd never heard of it back when I lived in SF....or maybe it was released in the time period after I moved to LA, whereupon I lost my inside track on imports, not working in a retail record store anymore?

I'll have to get the Battisti version.

Oh and what a treat to have Ben Liebrand posting here!!! Welcome!!!

[remicks]

Originally Posted by BenLiebrand

Hi Quinny,

I am afraid you have a somewhat idealized view of the music business of today, therefore a small update on how things actual work:

- First I have to find who holds the rights, and be sure about this.
Small record companies tend to take risks and use without licensing.
But a major company like Sony/BMG does not want to risk being sued
by some small company because of violating copyrights.

- Then if I find the copyright owners, in 99,9% of all cases, they do not
have a master.

- Even crazier, the nice lady at the phone does not know what a master
is, does not know what processed or unprocessed is, does not know
what clipped waveforms are and thinks that anything she can rip from
anywhere (including mp3's from limewire) burnt on her 200 dollar
PC with 5 dollar CD-burner is fit to be used to press CD's from.

- Incredible as it may sound, they do not even take the trouble to send
someone to their archive (if they still have one), because the license
revenues earned for a particular track on such a specialized compilation
as Grand 12 Inches doesn't even warrant the time spent by personel
browsing through archives.

- And in a business declining 15% each year, I am lucky there are
still people who join me in this out-dated quest to preserve these
masters. I therefore can't blame them to want this release to be
broader than just a small hard-core niche market. Selling 2000
copies to a handfull of die-hards doesn't pay the bills and if the bills
aren't paid, no company will agree on participating on a next edition.

- Also some companies ask such advances on royalties that those tracks
simply can't be licensed as sales won't mount up to earning back
these advances.

- Yes a vinyl transfer is possible, but being a sound engineer for more
than 25 years, I know what is lost in cutting to vinyl, let alone trying to
get it back in a transfer. So vinyl transfers are the very last resort and
only when a decent pressing is to be found.

- Yes, there sometimes are longer versions, but if they sound crap
and a master can't be found then the choice becomes more simple.
And yes, if I do come across that better version, I'll try to convince
all involved to include it on a next edition. And Yes, many of the tracks
suggested are already on my list, but all the reasons above have
prevented them to be used so far.

So I therefore call upon you all to help me get the right masters of the right versions so a major hurdle is taken to actually getting things done.

What do you say! Wil you help?

:) Ben Liebrand

Ben how terrific you've taken the time to come here . It helps so much in understanding what's involved in projects like yours . We are all kindred spirits with you here in our love of disco and like you we want this music rescued from slipping away forever . How sad to learn so much of it to a degree has ...

I think most criticism comes from our frustration with the reality of this situation that you are going through ....as we wait (and wait) for certain gems to be reissued only to never see it happen .


I have a suggestion ...

......since it seems very likely that a great number of the masters of these recordings' may never resurface .... or may stay locked away for years yet to come ... how about developing a new series addressing this ??

It could even be called flat out

NEEDLE DROP:
The Elusive Masters Disco Recordings

or THE MISSING MASTERS
Vinyl Transfers Disco Series

in which within the packaging it is clearly explained that because of no other choice , all the contained songs are presented from vinyl transfers (with the greatest of care) because to wait for their masters to emerge before releasing them ....might take us into yet another generation of waiting ... if at all ...

I think with this upfront explanation many many collectors and dance music fans in general will be grateful to finally have these songs offered in a "best that we can do for now " type of packaging ....

remicks


*****

[BrunoRepublic]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

Surely a good mastering engineer could get results that come very, very close?

Sure, but in my experience, the vast majority of records out there were not cut by good mastering engineers. Like anything, it takes a lot of time and effort to get the most out of cutting a record, and most of the labels simply didn't care then (and they certainly don't care now).

[QUINNY]

Originally Posted by Graham_Start

Sure, but in my experience, the vast majority of records out there were not cut by good mastering engineers. Like anything, it takes a lot of time and effort to get the most out of cutting a record, and most of the labels simply didn't care then (and they certainly don't care now).

20/20 hindsight is a marvellous thing.

Worse still Graham, it might have been the mastering engineer who didn't do such a great job, prior to the cutting engineer. There were many processes (getting further away from the first generation master) involved in the release of records. Poor vinly quality, wrong chemical mix at the metalizing stage...all these things could contribute to the overall quality. So, don't just blame the cutting engineers.

Surely you have a few transfers that stack up reasonably well against a CD release?

Of course this throws up a whole new game of croquet. Should a person go for finding the master, production master, safety copy etc., etc.? The chain could be very long and sound quality could vary enormously between them. Slightly too much oxide on a set of heads and the top end might disappear. Use Ampex 406 instead of 456 and that would make the whole copy sound different. Flip the wrong EQ switch (by accident) and you've got a copy that's noticeably different to the original. Use 7 1/2 ips instead of 15ips or 30 ips and you could end up with an inferior copy. Speeds would obviously be different between the two and a machine that had been switched on all day might have a terrific amount of drift.

There were too many variables to ponder and we are talking about the record business. People were there to earn money and under (extreme) pressure to deliver on time.

[BrunoRepublic]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

20/20 hindsight is a marvellous thing.

Surely you have a few transfers that stack up reasonably well against a CD release?

Yes, but the key word here is "a few". Under ideal circumstances, vinyl can sound fantastic. The trouble is, it's almost never made under such ideals.

Originally Posted by QUINNY

There were too many variables to ponder and we are talking about the record business. People were there to earn money and under (extreme) pressure to deliver on time.

Oh, absolutely. As with any business, it's about getting the product out as quickly and cheaply as possible. But further to that, even if time and care was taken at every step, the results were often deliberately compromised to get not the best result on a top-end system, but the best result on your average cheap consumer system. Rolling off the highs to prevent tracing distortion, cutting the bass and compressing the signal to get better s/n figures on crappy 70s regrind vinyl, etc.

[Videoskooter]

Hi Ben, so great you joined us!

So to all the people who are reading this thread: if you can help Ben, please do. We are all looking for our favourite tracks on CD. If you provide the (legal) stuff to him, he'll do the rest and make a lot of Disco peeps so happy!

Maybe even Alec R. Costandinos (wherever he is )

[jam master jay]

Awesome to see you post here, Ben! As I (and others) have stated in this thread, I appreciate your efforts to not only preserve the music, but to preserve it in the best quality that can be obtained.

Can't wait to get my copy of Volume 5, and even though I don't have much inside information anymore on where to find masters, I will be sure to offer my "wish list" for future volumes to you by email.

[ashley_k]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

Not true.
Why? Because most of the tracks we're talking about were recorded in analogue, where clipping was a way of life. Engineers would push analogue levels waaaaay into the red (in order to get maximum sound to noise ratio, even with dolby A, they still did it) and that made it absolutely certain that waveforms would have been severely clipped and compressed. Add brick wall limiting at the mastering stage in many cases and....voila. In other words we're not talking about pristine sound in the first place. The early Digital recorders weren't that great sounding in absolute terms, neither (too many artefacts compared with today's technology). So getting too precious with these master tapes is in one way, somewhat fatuous, 'cos they're already a pig's ear (relatively speaking). Less of a pig's ear than vinyl, but nonetheless.....

Now, seriously over doing levels on a digital copy of that wouldn't help, but the odd push over 0dB never did anything any harm (in digital parlance anything over 0dB digital level is considered clipped), so long as the average level was kept reasonably low. DAT tapes were surprisingly forgiving at times and a good engineer would know just how much he or she, could get away with.

Unfortunately Quinny I think you're a bit confused or misinformed on the subject of Analogue and Digital clipping, as there is a big difference between Analogue clipping and Digital clipping.

Analogue clipping (soft clipping): is when an analogue tape is clipping/overloaded with a signal the result is a saturation type effect, this saturation effect is not an unpleasant effect and tends to give the sound a warmer/fatter feel, but analogue tape still has a limit on the amount of signal it can handle before you end up with a unpleasant level of distortion in the tape signal.

The clipping effect in the digital domain is quite different.

Digital clipping (hard clipping): digital clipping occurs when the signal goes over 0dB, if this happens in an wav/mp3 file or on a CD no saturation effect is produced, all that happens is that the clipped part of the signal is just cut off and the result is a very unpleasant sounding file. Digital clipping is the equivalent of putting square wheels on your car.

Unfortunately digital clipping sometimes happens on rushed/poorly produced/mastered CDs, with an untrained ear you may not even notice the occasional or VERY minor digital clipping on CDs, or alternatively if you just have a generally low expectation of sound quality - you may not notice it.

Any seriously bad digital clipping should really be noticed before the CD goes into production, but not always.

The bottom line is that no digital clipping should really be going on in digital files, I personally would not go up to .0dB for a file for mastering/CD production, I'd still leave a little digital head room of -0.03dB.

And as for DAT tapes being forgiving: No not really - although a DAT tape is a tape, no saturation occurs on this tape as it's a digital process of placing digital information on the tape, the good engineering skills needed when recording to a DAT are using your ears and getting used to the metering and the a/d converter of the DAT machine you are using, as the metering and a/d converters on some of the old DAT machines were not exactly great. You can also run into a number of problems with old DAT masters, but that's another story.

If Ben is sent a clipped digital file it's of no real use to him, it is possible to repair some minor digital clipping but it's rather time consuming and not an ideal solution.

I've been testing out iZotope's RX audio restoration software recently which has a de-clipping tool and works fairly well, it's worth checking the package out if anyone need to do some serious audio restoration work, although as with all restoration software you need to put a bit of effort in to get best results form it.

Unfortunately a lot of people do not fully understand things like clipping/limiting/compression/normalizing etc., also there is a lot of misinformation floating around on these subjects too, not sure I totally grasp every detail of it myself at times, so if I've made any school boy errors in the above, please feel free to point them out.

ashley_k

[needlefingers]

Yes Ben, thanks for joining us and all your work in keeping disco alive.

I marched in the Nijmegan Road Marches in '77, '78 and '79 and used to party at night in all the discos in town, so maybe I heard you spin in your early years. I like to think so.

I have contact with a few engineers/artists from the disco days and as I see them I will mention that your looking for the masters. Would like to be of help to your projects if I can.

Keep us dancing.

[paul]

Wow, glad to see you. Funny, I just emailed ya.
Anyway your comments are very insightful for those us not in the business. Please take my and many other criticisms here as constructive. You did such a great job on the earlier Grand Series that to me this last one wasn't quite as good as the others.

I noticed on "Let's Dance" that there was major dynamic compression when I was using my own audio editor for a compillation. Do you favor that sort of compression or was that how you originally received that recording?
As for your music request, I have some of those songs but they are not masters so I suppose I can't help.