Motown vs. Philadelphia International

[remicks]

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What I 'm wondering is , how fierce was the competition between the two ? Were they arch enemies .... two fiercely competing recording camps .... or something much more congenial ??


One thing curious : a general review suggests to me that Motown did not do covers of Philadelphia International songs ... the one big exception being Thelma Houston's remake of DON'T LEAVE THIS WAY .
I can't think of others .... disco experts ... what say you??

And conversely, what Motown songs if any, did Philadelphia International take and redo into their style ?




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[eddie]

There wasn't much in common between the 2 labels. Motown had more established artists and often dabbled in funk like early Commodores, Dazz Band, Rick James, ect. PIR had a softer edge and almost always used strings.

What was a competition was PIR vs. Salsoul with Vince Montana exploring new frontiers who couldn't with his former boss!!

[remicks]

Originally Posted by eddie

There wasn't much in common between the 2 labels. Motown had more established artists and often dabbled in funk like early Commodores, Dazz Band, Rick James, ect. PIR had a softer edge and almost always used strings.

What was a competition was PIR vs. Salsoul with Vince Montana exploring new frontiers who couldn't with his former boss!!

Well ...... Motown was no stranger to strings ....

I agree though .. .... there's something amiss in the Philadephia Int. "disco" story .... some reason that they let all that Salsoul music slip thru their fingers .....


And do you agree Eddie about DLMTW .... or can you come up with any other tunes shared between Motown and PIR ???


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[SandraDee]

Originally Posted by eddie

Motown had more established artists

I thought that many PIR artists were well-established acts who'd done stuff in the 60s such as the O'Jays & the 3 Degrees?

[Disco Funk]

I imagine the competition was fierce amongst all of the disco-based labels. By the early 70s, PIR had taken up the dancefloor moniker. Anything Philly was considered gold, and the people at Motown probably knew this, which is why there were a few Motown projects commissioned through Philadelphia's Sigma Sound Studios people. The best examples are the two Eddie Kendricks LPs Going Up In Smoke and He's A Friend. Carl Bean's I Was Born This was also a Philly production.

PIR was based on the East Coast and Motown was based on the West Coast in the early 70s, so I don't know if that was a factor in what markets they focused on or competed in.

Disco Funk

[remicks]

Originally Posted by Disco Funk

I imagine the competition was fierce amongst all of the disco-based labels. By the early 70s, PIR had taken up the dancefloor moniker. Anything Philly was considered gold, and the people at Motown probably knew this, which is why there were a few Motown projects commissioned through Philadelphia's Sigma Sound Studios people. The best examples are the two Eddie Kendricks LPs Going Up In Smoke and He's A Friend. Carl Bean's I Was Born This was also a Philly production.


Disco Funk

You're right on this DF, thanks for reminding me .... I had thought there was some connection between the two along the way ..... you're right, Motown did use PIR for some projects ... but never the other way around .

Do you suppose that it was the Jackson Five acquisition by PIR that began a cause for conflict ?? Seems as though after that there was a great divide .... nothing done between the two again ....

I still find it interesting that neither made use of the other's catalog .... No one's yet mentioned any others so will DON'T LEAVE THIS WAY turn out to be the only song shared between the two ???

The Gamble and Huff group never did any versions of Motown songs ????

I'm starting to wonder some about this so called "brotherly love" emulating from the city of ......


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[Simon White]

Originally Posted by remicks

I still find it interesting that neither made use of the other's catalog .... No one's yet mentioned any others so will DON'T LEAVE THIS WAY turn out to be the only song shared between the two ???

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Ex PIR artist Jean Carne covered 'If You Don't Know Me By Now' for Motown.

[Disco Funk]

Originally Posted by remicks

You're right on this DF, thanks for reminding me .... I had thought there was some connection between the two along the way ..... you're right, Motown did use PIR for some projects ... but never the other way around .

Do you suppose that it was the Jackson Five acquisition by PIR that began a cause for conflict ?? Seems as though after that there was a great divide .... nothing done between the two again ....

I still find it interesting that neither made use of the other's catalog .... No one's yet mentioned any others so will DON'T LEAVE THIS WAY turn out to be the only song shared between the two ???

The Gamble and Huff group never did any versions of Motown songs ????

I'm starting to wonder some about this so called "brotherly love" emulating from the city of ......


*****

Maybe they didn't do any covers of Motown tracks because they didn't want to pay royalties to non-PIR people? I don't recall too many (if any) of the PIR tracks being covers or songs by non-Philly songwriters. They were usually written by Gamble-Huff, McFadden-Whitehead, Wansel, Sigler, T Bell, etc... I guess the exception would be the Philadelphia Freedom LP which contained covers in the form of the title track and War's 'Smile Happy'.

I think Barry Gordy had a similar philosophy with Motown records produced in LA. Most songs were written by Motown people. Not too many covers of non-Motown written songs.

I guess Don't Leave Me This Way was the only crossover.

Disco Funk

[eddie]

I can't think of any Motown track that PIR covered. I think Gamble and Huff wanted to be more progressive in style and didn't want any "Uptown medleys" on PIR records like on Shalamar's debut.

[Ian Rose]

I didn't know Gamble and Huff are still at it untill a couple weeks ago. They have a store here in Philly, with a studio upstairs, where they were recording at the time. Yeah, I had to buy the offical Philly International shirt. They have the original Sigma mixing desk in there...you know I had to touch it!!! It's also possible to get private tours of the original Sigma studios in a group...we need a group.

[Disco Funk]

Originally Posted by Ian Rose

I didn't know Gamble and Huff are still at it untill a couple weeks ago. They have a store here in Philly, with a studio upstairs, where they were recording at the time. Yeah, I had to buy the offical Philly International shirt. They have the original Sigma mixing desk in there...you know I had to touch it!!! It's also possible to get private tours of the original Sigma studios in a group...we need a group.

Wow, they actually have the original mixing console? What about the echo chamber, same Sigma echo chamber? I doubt it. I read a book on the Philly sound, and they had a huge echo chamber built into that studio.

Yeah, let's form the "Disco Music Philly Philanderers". I'll play drums, a la Earl Young. :)

Disco Funk

[Ian Rose]

Originally Posted by Disco Funk

Wow, they actually have the original mixing console? What about the echo chamber, same Sigma echo chamber? I doubt it. I read a book on the Philly sound, and they had a huge echo chamber built into that studio.

Yeah, let's form the "Disco Music Philly Philanderers". I'll play drums, a la Earl Young. :)

Disco Funk

They have a new store on south Broad with a studio upstairs. The original mixing desk is in the store. All that TSOP and Salsoul mixed on it..oh jeez. They imply that the orignal 13th St. studio (where the echo chamber would be) is still intact , which makes no sence, but who am I to question TSOP??

[Disco Funk]

Originally Posted by Ian Rose

They have a new store on south Broad with a studio upstairs. The original mixing desk is in the store. All that TSOP and Salsoul mixed on it..oh jeez. They imply that the orignal 13th St. studio (where the echo chamber would be) is still intact , which makes no sence, but who am I to question TSOP??

Is the original building with the original studio still intact? I doubt with today's electronics they would have needed to keep the original echo chamber. I would have thought they would have torn it down and redesigned to have stuff in the space where the echo chamber was located.

Did you find out what artists still record in there? Vince Montana recorded a number of tracks in the last few years with his own Philly orchestra. I wonder if he did it there? Or is there bad blood between Montana and Gamble & Huff?

Disco Funk

[Ian Rose]

Theres the "OG" studio which I know nothing about, thats supposed to be there still at least in shell form, the original Sigma on north 13th, and theres the new "Gamble and Huff" studios on south Broad. Different things. From thier new output I that can see, get the old stuff...

[Simon White]

Originally Posted by remicks

You're right on this DF, thanks for reminding me .... I had thought there was some connection between the two along the way ..... you're right, Motown did use PIR for some projects ... but never the other way around .

Do you suppose that it was the Jackson Five acquisition by PIR that began a cause for conflict ?? Seems as though after that there was a great divide .... nothing done between the two again ....

I still find it interesting that neither made use of the other's catalog .... No one's yet mentioned any others so will DON'T LEAVE THIS WAY turn out to be the only song shared between the two ???

The Gamble and Huff group never did any versions of Motown songs ????



I'm starting to wonder some about this so called "brotherly love" emulating from the city of ......


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Remicks, I'm still curious why you think there was "cause for conflict" between Motown and Gamble & Huff?
You jumped to this conclusion in you first post and are now stating it as though it was a fact. Your evidence is that one successful 70's recording company didn't record another successful recording companies songs and didn't use another for production! Does this really translate into conflict or just good business practice ???

Gamble and Huff had an amazing roster of song writers including themselves to use...why would they NEED to record songs from another publishing company when they could record their own brilliant ones? They had been in the business of writing songs, running their own labels and producing hit records long enough to know exactly what they were doing...and clearly did as they were very successful in the 70's !

Gamble & Huff had their own set up and certainly didn't need Motown or Jobete songs or there production teams, simple as that !