DJ's: Producing and marketing your own CD's

[Rab]

About a year and a half ago I purchased the "Paradise Garage" double CD by Larry Levan. For those of you that own this once sought after CD, you probably already know it isn't all that. Many of the mixes are kind of shabby and the volume is not well controlled on some of the mixes.

For those of us in the hmm...40+ crowd that remember those wonderful days back in the late 1970's when all the disco classics were at there peak, you will probably remember how spectacular the mixes were. In fact the mixing really made the music all the more wonderful. A DJ had the ability to create an entire mood change throughout a disco in the blink of an eye. Mixing back then was an art form, not like today where so much of the music sounds alike. Sadly, the younger people really have no idea what they missed.

Today, we have a lot of the old disco music available on CD, however, very little is available that is mixed. And when it is, it is often like the Paradise Garage CD. So, my question is has anyone ever considered making a really nice double CD that is well mixed to be marketed? I'm not an expert on the legalities of it, but my understanding is that many of the record companies that hold the copyrights could be interested in this kind of production since they would get a piece of the pie along with the potential of inspiring the music to come back into vogue. :-?

[Masdefi]

Very interesting idea, but what about copyrights?
I am not an expert on that.
But don't you think someone else has thought to realize mixes?
If it could be possible, I would have a loooot !!!!!!

[QUINNY]

Rab: I suspect that the mixes in the clubs, actually weren't as hot as you remember. The Larry Levan CD is from tapes of the day or mixed just prior to release, a few years back? He was considered one of the best wasn't he?
There have been lots of mixed albums and CDs so far as I can tell and don't forget that a lot of the early 'mixed' albums were actually fairly loose segues, in that they merely started the next record on the beat, at the fade of the previous record.
I'd personally sooner have full tracks than mixes any day. Mixes and why and what makes them work, are sooooo personal.

[Graham_Start]

Originally Posted by QUINNY

I'd personally sooner have full tracks than mixes any day.

As compilations go, I'd have to agree. Not that I don't like hearing a good mix, but I like to have the ability to take the tracks and put them on my own compilations if I choose. I really liked the approach that BBE took with the "Disco Forever" compilation. It consists of three discs: two containing the original tracks, and a very nice mix on the third. So, you get to have your cake and eat it too.

[NickNack]

I think the legal issues alone would make it just about impossible for an "at home" dj to mix and sell our favorite club music. Sell it LEGALLY and make a profit at it. Hell, even Puff Daddy cried the P. Diddy blues when Motown charged him so many thousands for an 8-second sample of their music.

As for mixed CD's, I don't go for them. For me it's personal because as a dj I just like to make my own mixes. Can't do that if another dj has taken that away. Also, unless I was in the club or know the dj, it doesn't really do that much except let me appreciate his or her technical skill. You don't get the real vibe and energy that they were trying to create.

I'd rather hear the djs' skills at remixing --- this I can get into. I never had the pleasure of meeting Junior Vasquez but his remix work is extroadinary. I've never purchased a mixed down CD of his simply because I've never seen him live so it doesn't hold much appeal for me.

Frankie Knuckles is a different story. I've got old feelings there so his mixes and remixes work very well for me.

[Rab]

[quote="Masdefi"]

Very interesting idea, but what about copyrights?
I am not an expert on that.
But don't you think someone else has thought to realize mixes?

To be honest with you Masdefi, I don't think there has been a lot of people that have given it a lot of thought, and the people that have done it, such as Larry Levan I don't think have anymore clout than anyone else that knows what there doing.

As far as copyrights, I don't think it would take that much work to contact a record company and ask them what they thought of having their material reproduced in a mixed track. After all that was basically how the Paradise Garage CD and other similar CD's have been produced.

We have to keep one thing in mind as well, especially Europeans. Here in the U.S. disco from the mid to late 1970's is all but completely dead. This music has an extremely small market, regardless of what many of us disco junkies want to believe. Here in the U.S. disco became a dirty word. The goal here is not necessarily about making a lot of money off the deal anyway. The idea is to do it for the love of this music. To understand that there is a whole generation that did not have the privilege of enjoying this music in its limelight. Of course, if you are a DJ or have DJ equipment you not necessary part of the targeted market. It would be mostly people like myself, who only own 1 turntable.

Mixing back then was about more than just matching beats, it was about enhancing the club atmosphere with intricate mood changes. Some of the songs would gradually creep in; or maybe a drastic cut from one record to the other. Many of these guys really knew what they were doing. One screw-up and the dance floor would clear immediately.

As for Quinny, I'm not sure what the environment is like in England, particularly back in the late 1970's, but truthfully without any exageration, the mixes were that fantasic in the clubs in Boston and New York (I've only been in the gay ones). We had 2 disco radio stations back then KISS108 & WBOS here in Boston that were incredible. What was nice, is that the DJ on staff would let listeners know when the mixing would begin and to have their tapes ready. Unfortunately, I only made a couple and they were both on 8-track. Larry Levan may have been a legend, but he might have been having an off day when the Paradise Garage CD was produced. There are a few good mixes, and a slew of bad ones. Unfortunately, a lot of those legends I remember from both the clubs and the radio stations are no longer even with us today.
....It was just an idea, I was just wondering if anyone else gave it any thought...

[markydefad]

Regarding Quinny's comment on Larry Levan's "mixing ability"...I've heard just the opposite. Flawless mixing WASN'T his stong suit....selecting the "right" records, creating a mood and taking dancers on a long trip WAS his specialty. Now, never having heard him play in person, I have to repeat that's what I've read or heard from others who did dance to his music at Paradise Garage.

But ya know it''s interesting to hear "live tapes" from back in the day...cause the mixes are often NOT flawless....but damned if I could tell it when I was on the dance floor dancing to them. You can hear obvious pitching up and down on the tape that was never apparent in the club. At least --NOT TO ME!!! :roll:

So I guess it's not really fair to judge a DJ's merit on how the mixes from back in the day sound on CD today. I'm just grateful to hear how he put together a string of tunes and created a mood. And I'm fascinated by the legendary stories of DJ ego and bad temperament--like Larry Levan playing one record repeatedly over and over and over and over--UNTIL he got the reaction from the crowd he felt the record deserved!!!! Unheard of to me--punishing your dancers--and STILL they came!!! That's a cult of DJ personality that I find most interesting.

[nrgbeat]

Originally Posted by markydefad

But ya know it''s interesting to hear "live tapes" from back in the day...cause the mixes are often NOT flawless....but damned if I could tell it when I was on the dance floor dancing to them.

All those drugs made the mixes sound good. :D :D :D

[nrgbeat]

Hey Rab, speaking of dancing in Boston, several years ago someone gave me some tapes from a club in Boston called Darts.

Did you ever dance there? The mixing on the tapes is nothing special, but there are some obscure disco ditties on the tape.

[markydefad]

Originally Posted by nrgbeat

All those drugs made the mixes sound good. :D :D :D

Hmmmm....

Well, it's probably MY fault...but my rumored "drug-use" has been greatly exaggerated. Just enough crystal to make my feet wanna dance the night away. NEVER used it unless I was going to Trocadero or to another "all night dancing" establishment. Yet, somehow I've become the poster child for the "druggie" dancer!!!!! :roll:

[discosavvy]

Rab, with all due respect, I disagree with you. If disco isn't popular among some people in the USA (read: substantial niche market), how do you explain the following:

* All the new disco compilations, most recently the hit-laden "Monster Disco" advertised on TV
* Classic disco music getting into lots of recent movies, like "Rush Hour 2" and "The Full Monty" (I gave some other examples in another recent post of mine.)
* Saturday night party radio programs in California, New York, and Connecticut and other states where disco music is played for hours at a time (and they do get requests)
* Re-releases of disco albums by Michael Jackson, Chic, and Donna Summer (just to name some obvious ones) are selling pretty well. Even Saturday Night Fever is still selling in the States.
* New concert tours by disco and funk artists like Chic, K.C. and the Sunshine Band, Thelma Houston, Donna Summer, the Brothers Johnson, etc. have been getting big crowds in the USA. The fans are coming out of the woodwork.
* "The Disco Ball: A 30 Year Celebration" will be aired on ABC; it was taped in October and has live performances by Chic, Gloria Gaynor, Thelma Houston, the Village People, and more.
* A museum exhibit called "Disco: A Decade of Saturday Nights" by the Experience Music Project (Seattle, Washington) is running now thru May 2003.
* Both the original version and various remakes of "We Are Family" are always on the radio and television for some promotion or another (from local businesses to the WE television channel for women), and was even remade last year as a September 11 fundraiser.
* Nostalgia in general for the '70s among 30- and 40-somethings.
* Americans who traveled to Europe and heard songs like "Little L" by Jamiroquai and "Murder on the Dancefloor" by Sophie Ellis Bextor said they loved the music (essentially disco with modern production techniques). Check out the American-consumer reviews at Amazon.com. Another good example: At the Amazon review for "The Best of Peaches and Herb", a New Mexico consumer writes "its disco and old skool at its finest. Too bad we don't hear music like this anymore on the radio." And he's not alone in that sentiment - I saw it many, many times from Americans.
* Barry Manilow fans who bought the "Here at the Mayflower" CD said they liked "Let's Dance!", and this song is like a nostalgic trip back to the days of Saturday Night Fever with its Travolta name-dropping in a lyric and the disco ball Barry has on stage during his concerts when he performs "Let's Dance!".
* The black station WYBC FM in New Haven, Connecticut has a great daily hour-long program called the "Old School Drive at Five", and people love it.
* People feel more free to talk about what they like and don't like, since this isn't 23 years ago; besides, rap and teen-pop are more embarrassing, or at least should be.
* Most of the idiots who hate disco today and say "disco still sucks" are white male heavy-metal and hard-rock fans. They don't represent the whole country by any means. And not all disco fans are gay or black either. I'm certainly neither.
* This is not the only disco forum nor the only forum where people talk about disco casually; just because there is no centralized "disco culture" and just because radio doesn't give airtime to old and new acts that are popular in Europe doesn't mean there isn't a wide existing and potential audience for new disco CDs and compilations. And some young people today could be educated on what good disco is, even if older folks already made up their minds one way or another. There are 20 year olds who just discovered music by Chic or Gloria Gaynor and think it's the greatest thing. (I know because I watch the guestbooks and message boards.)

Just because '70s disco isn't a major part of commercial radio today (though it's pretty big in R&B circles where it's simply called "old-school jams") doesn't mean people don't like it (even if many don't admit it publicly or aren't heavily into it). Why not conduct an anonymous scientific survey of people chosen at random and find out how many really like or dislike disco? I think you're going on anecdotal assumptions like the "fear factor" of saying the word "disco" or the lingering stereotypes about disco or what you heard from some people you spoke with or because you're a member of an oppressed minority. But record labels that re-released old albums now claim that the disco stigma is much diminished; an example would be the wording on the Sister Sledge "We Are Family" CD release from Rhino Records (1995).

It's all about "positioning". Rick Dees successfully repositioned disco as a silly joke. Are you going to let that stand? EMP is trying to, in their words, "forever change people's thinking about a musical genre that has been hugely important and hugely misunderstood." Maybe they will succeed, maybe not. But you'll never get everyone to universally like ANY genre of music. So what? If say 20 percent of the American public likes disco, that's good enough. At its peak, disco is said to have represented only 20 percent of all record sales.

I know how to promote niche products to wide audiences and how to track people the appropriate people down to inform them of new and classic disco music. I think other people know how to do the same.

[Rab]

Originally Posted by nrgbeat

Hey Rab, speaking of dancing in Boston, several years ago someone gave me some tapes from a club in Boston called Darts.

Did you ever dance there? The mixing on the tapes is nothing special, but there are some obscure disco ditties on the tape.

I don't remember a club called "Darts". It may have been a straight club, if so, this would explain why the mixing wasn't all that. The late 70's was the time period when the drinking age was going up gradually. If you remember it was 18 for several years, then went up a year to 19, 20 and so on. I was always 1 year behind, and the "carding" was fierce in Boston. Providence was 1 year behind Mass. in increasing the age limit which was why so many young people were going accross the state line to party. Providence at the time was definetly ahead of its time as well. Those here in the northeast know this city is all about partying....gay or straight.

Anyways, almost all the clubs had pretty good mixing at the time but, "Buddy's", "Pipeline" and "Chaps" ( Chaps, prevsly called "Styx" until around 1978) had incredible mixing! I can remember hearing things like, the proceeding/next record creeping in during break portion of a 12" then fad out, at just the right time. It is difficult to explain the effects in words, but I can remember hearing specific mixes that I made a mental note to try and create on my own later on. I really admired the imagination it took creating the various mood changes those guys would create.

As far as discosavvy's dissagreeing, that is fine I hope your right. But, I think disco might be experiencing a bit of an upswing based more on memorabilia/nostalgia. I don't think a radio station that waits till after 10:00pm to play a few disco classics means disco is on an upswing. While there might be a stereotype of disco-haters as being white straight boy heavy metal heads, I would be careful on this site. I've learned the hard way. But, truthfully without the gay boys disco won't experience much of any upswing. One can really enjoy the music, but unless you were out in the limelight at the time you cannot possibly imagine how spactacular it was. The straight clubs really didn't have the cache. Disco represented a real "great to be alive" feeling at the time. I will cherish those memories forever.

[nrgbeat]

Originally Posted by Rab

I don't remember a club called "Darts". It may have been a straight club, if so, this would explain why the mixing wasn't all that. imagination it took creating the various mood changes those guys would create.

No, this was definitely recorded at a gay club. The person who gave me the tape was gay.

[discosavvy]

Hi Rab, thanks for sharing your thoughts. But I wouldn't judge whether disco is popular or not based on whether commercial radio stations play disco all day long. It's like a catch-22. First, disco is perceived as an old style that is no longer current, so its playtime is limited to 6 or 7 hours on Saturday nights on some pop stations across the USA (actually, the broadcasting of disco on WEBE FM starts at 7pm, not 10pm, but I understand your point). Because of this same perception, new disco songs by Jamiroquai and Sophie Ellis Bextor don't get airtime in the USA, despite their worldwide popularity. Thus, people who like (or, in the case of young people, would like) disco, or at least the disco sound even if they don't like the name "disco", do not have the opportunity to hear new disco at all, and old disco only in limited timespans. So this leads to the perception that disco has no future in this country and that everyone really wants only rock, country, or rap. The problem is compounded by the fact that R&B stations that still play classic disco at all times of day don't also play new disco, because their focus is on new R&B ballads. Most radio stations I wrote to are also not very receptive to new song ideas, so the programs stay the same week after week. In short, American radio is boring and not in tune with what's happening in Europe, but I guarantee you that there are at least a few million people in the USA who like disco and always liked it, and they have no voice in the music business and aren't catered to by Top-40 radio nor by music surveys which no doubt don't ask about disco, house, techno, or anything else non-mainstream. But somehow Kylie Minogue's "Can't Get You Out of My Head" got popular and lots of airtime (though I think is a boring song). Wouldn't fans of that song be receptive to quality disco too? I think so. The problem as I see it is that American disco fans don't get to hear any of the new material unless they actively seek it out. And maybe it's not "hip" for the younger crowd to listen to disco if no one else you know is -- another catch-22. And so most people don't rush out to buy a new disco single because they don't know it exists.

You're right that the playlists and atmospheres of gay clubs might have been more exciting than most straight clubs (and a recent novel "Love The One You're With" by James Earl Hardy in chapter 4 makes the generalized point that the straight playlists were inferior with disco songs by artists like Leo Sayer and Rod Stewart and didn't have enough representation from black females etc.) but I'm not talking about club audiences, but rather the public at large. The market is out there, but unreached by modern radio; but if CD sales are any indication there must be profits to be made if so many look-alike compilations can be sold in large numbers. With the future recovery of Internet radio in sight and new technologies like WiFi, it might be that a few years from now Americans will have many more easily-available choices, as broad a diversity as Brits claim to already get on the radio dial. So I would be cautiously optimistic about the future, and my definition of success with a format might be different than a corporate radio owner's.

And even if it was just a nostalgic trip for most people, it was fun to see disco come back for a little while.

[discosavvy]

I found something interesting in Summit Daily News from Colorado. Kimberly Nicoletti wrote an article on November 8, 2002 called "Retro becomes mainstream". The gist of the article is that people still like music from decades ago AND that disco is among the true favorites. The article starts off with "Disco never dies, especially in Summit County, where tourists flock to Friday's Frisco Disco at Barkley's and Cecilia's Mondays." Dan Fallon, owner of Barkley's, says he's been playing disco for 4 years (for comparison purposes, WEBE FM in Connecticut has been broadcasting disco for 6-8 hours each week for over 7 years). Fallon says "Disco is still the best dance music around... Disco is the fundamental programming building block." and Nicoletti writes "Dan Fallon believes disco has moved back into the mainstream... However, in contrast to disco, he sees the 80s resurgence as a passing trend." Then she quotes Fallon as saying that disco has "staying power", in contrast to Cecilia's manager Scott Gongaware who says "we may not stick to the disco format very much longer". Meanwhile, some other clubs have also been going with an '80s-music theme, such as some in Denver since last year, but I sure hope Fallon is right.