Disco CDs with bad sound quality

[musiquelover]

After having bought quite a few disco releases on CD I feel the need to address this topic.

A few examples of bad sound quality:
1. on the "Groove on Down" compilation: Vaughan Mason's "Bounce, Rock, Skate, Roll" has some sort of "background hum" (don't know a better description) and the Young & Company title "I Like" sounds like a worn-out vinyl most notably at the beginning
2. on "The Original Disco Selection" CD there's a song by First Choice – Love Freeze: just listen to the last minute, there's an almost unbelievable amount of cracks and hiss sounds

Maybe these sound quality problems only occur on my CDs but I believe it to be a general problem with these tracks on those releases. Probably the quality control of some record companies is lacking when it comes to re-issues.
So if someone has the above releases and could comment on them that would be great.

Am I too nitpicky when it comes to sound quality and expecting too much? Should one just be grateful that those old disco records got rereleased on CD at all?

[QUINNY]

Originally Posted by musiquelover

After having bought quite a few disco releases on CD I feel the need to address this topic.

A few examples of bad sound quality:
1. on the "Groove on Down" compilation: Vaughan Mason's "Bounce, Rock, Skate, Roll" has some sort of "background hum" (don't know a better description) and the Young & Company title "I Like" sounds like a worn-out vinyl most notably at the beginning
2. on "The Original Disco Selection" CD there's a song by First Choice – Love Freeze: just listen to the last minute, there's an almost unbelievable amount of cracks and hiss sounds

Maybe these sound quality problems only occur on my CDs but I believe it to be a general problem with these tracks on those releases. Probably the quality control of some record companies is lacking when it comes to re-issues.
So if someone has the above releases and could comment on them that would be great.

Am I too nitpicky when it comes to sound quality and expecting too much? Should one just be grateful that those old disco records got rereleased on CD at all?

Unless a whole CD is poor quality, I think you may be a tad nit-picky.

None of us know what problems might have been faced in order to release a particular track. Needle drops are not uncommon when talking about music that's up to 35 years old, where tape masters might have been destroyed or are unplayable. I've noticed lots of instances where the phase shifts (one side of the stereo image might sound a little dull) and my immediate reaction is always "why didn't they pick up on that?" However, as someone who knows quite a lot about audio tapes and their problems I always have to give the producers the benefit of the doubt and think that maybe the master was like it after all these years or even after repeated tries the tape heads still got clogged up with oxide and this was their best shot. Poor needle drops are slightly less forgiveable, as it's quite easy to obtain a very good sound from vinyl....starting with a mint 12" (or as good a pressing as one can obtain) of course.

I'm glad that the needle drop sounds inferior to tape transfers. There are those who argue vinyl sounds better!!

[ashley_k]

Originally Posted by musiquelover

After having bought quite a few disco releases on CD I feel the need to address this topic.

A few examples of bad sound quality:
1. on the "Groove on Down" compilation: Vaughan Mason's "Bounce, Rock, Skate, Roll" has some sort of "background hum" (don't know a better description) and the Young & Company title "I Like" sounds like a worn-out vinyl most notably at the beginning
2. on "The Original Disco Selection" CD there's a song by First Choice – Love Freeze: just listen to the last minute, there's an almost unbelievable amount of cracks and hiss sounds

Maybe these sound quality problems only occur on my CDs but I believe it to be a general problem with these tracks on those releases. Probably the quality control of some record companies is lacking when it comes to re-issues.
So if someone has the above releases and could comment on them that would be great.

Am I too nitpicky when it comes to sound quality and expecting too much? Should one just be grateful that those old disco records got rereleased on CD at all?

I think you are being a little unfair to Soul Brother’s "Groove on Down" compilation the majority of the tracks sound reasonable, with a few exceptions, if you listen to the original "Bounce, Rock, Skate, Roll" 12 inch you can hear that the recording has a lot of tape hiss in it, which I’m sure is present in the original studio master tape and is from the original recording process.

The sound quality of Young & Company intro is a bit lacking, you can hear that Soul Brother mastered some tracks from vinyl, as many other company’s do, even the major labels have to sometimes, unfortunately it’s just not possible to get or use the a masters tapes sometimes, also using the original master tapes adds to the costs involved in producing the CD.

I think using a vinyl copy is acceptable as long as a good clean pressing is used and careful sound restoration is done, Soul Brother should have been able to find a better vinyl copy to master from than the one they used for Young & Company.

If you were just buying the CD for Young & Company track I’d probably be a little disappointed with the intro, but on the other hand the CD represents good value for money when you consider the cost of the CD when compared to trying buy mint vinyl copies of the records included on it.

I guess we should just be grateful that the records get released on CD, although if no real effort has been made in trying to get a reasonable sound quality onto the CD then I’ll return the CD, as I don’t think we should just except poor sound quality.

[neonlights]

I just have to add, that in my experience, most of the disco compilation CDs I have, from non-major labels, are either mostly or at least partially mastered from vinyl (ie. volumes of the Disco Spectrum series, quite a few Suss'd/Salsoul releases etc..).

Unidisc might be the exception, since they own a great deal of the material they release, yet even they aren't perfect in this regard either.

I haven't pulled out "Groove On Down" in quite a while, but generally speaking I thought it was mostly decent compared to some of the others I've heard.. For example, many of the "Best of.." CDs put out by Hot Productions, which are some of the worst.

[musiquelover]

Originally Posted by ashley_k

I think you are being a little unfair to Soul Brother’s "Groove on Down" compilation the majority of the tracks sound reasonable, with a few exceptions, if you listen to the original "Bounce, Rock, Skate, Roll" 12 inch you can hear that the recording has a lot of tape hiss in it, which I’m sure is present in the original studio master tape and is from the original recording process.

The sound quality of Young & Company intro is a bit lacking, you can hear that Soul Brother mastered some tracks from vinyl, as many other company’s do, even the major labels have to sometimes, unfortunately it’s just not possible to get or use the a masters tapes sometimes, also using the original master tapes adds to the costs involved in producing the CD.

I think using a vinyl copy is acceptable as long as a good clean pressing is used and careful sound restoration is done, Soul Brother should have been able to find a better vinyl copy to master from than the one they used for Young & Company.

If you were just buying the CD for Young & Company track I’d probably be a little disappointed with the intro, but on the other hand the CD represents good value for money when you consider the cost of the CD when compared to trying buy mint vinyl copies of the records included on it.

I guess we should just be grateful that the records get released on CD, although if no real effort has been made in trying to get a reasonable sound quality onto the CD then I’ll return the CD, as I don’t think we should just except poor sound quality.

All in all the sound quality of Soul Brother’s "Groove On Down" compilation is good which made me wonder about the bad sounding exceptions in the first place.
I guess I'd rather have a company omit the inclusion of a song from a vinyl transfer if they're not able to track down a decent vinyl source. The same goes for master tapes. This would prevent disappointment for the customer of their product.

A question I have as a technical amateur:
Is it feasible to combine parts of the same recording from different vinyls without much hassle? If so bad vinyl transfers would be even less excusable.

[Graham_Start]

Originally Posted by neonlights

I just have to add, that in my experience, most of the disco compilation CDs I have, from non-major labels, are either mostly or at least partially mastered from vinyl (ie. volumes of the Disco Spectrum series, quite a few Suss'd/Salsoul releases etc..).

Unidisc might be the exception, since they own a great deal of the material they release, yet even they aren't perfect in this regard either.

Unidisc uses horrible EQ (their release of Gino Soccio's "Outline" will make your ears bleed... roll off the highs by 6db and it's *still* bright), crappy dynamic compression (Cerrone's "Supernature") and cleaned up needle drops... some done reasonably well (Salsoul compilations), others done quite badly (Bumblebee Unlimited). They might have the rights to distribute the music, but that doesn't mean that they have access to the master tapes.

Point is, for many disco albums, the master tapes were long ago discarded, destroyed by sticky-tape-syndrome, or vanished with bankrupt labels. For a lot of this music, even 5 years after it came out, it was assumed that nobody would ever want to hear it again.

[kdavid13]

[quote=Graham_Start;114861]Unidisc uses horrible EQ (their release of Gino Soccio's "Outline" will make your ears bleed... roll off the highs by 6db and it's *still* bright), crappy dynamic compression (Cerrone's "Supernature") and cleaned up needle drops... some done reasonably well (Salsoul compilations), others done quite badly (Bumblebee Unlimited). They might have the rights to distribute the music, but that doesn't mean that they have access to the master tapes.


Completely agree with you on the GINO SOCCIO Outline CD ; it had me reach out to my unplayed vinyl copy and make my very own copy.

I love the wealth of classics but UNIDISC CDs often sound cheap.Not always but often.

Years ago ; when they were just another disco label , I'd buy their 12inches vinyl stuff and I can't tell you how many times I had to return them to the stores because they had defects and huge bubbles on the actual vinyl surfaces.

[ol'skinflint]

I just bought the Roulette Records compilation "Get Up and Move Your Body". I love the songs but the CD as a whole sounds a bit trebly, and I can really hear a big difference when I play a different CD right after it without having to adjust the bass boost. I'm also a bit disappointed with the packaging as it doesn't list the times for the songs and the songwriting credits are incomplete. I always wonder why some CDs are released with less than great sound and packaging...does that mean they were released in a hurry or that whomever released them didn't care very much about quality? I also bought Musique's "Keep on Jumpin'" CD from Unidisc and I love the sound but I wonder why they didn't just go ahead and put the second Musique album on the same CD? There was plenty of room...instead they included remixes and different edits of the 3 songs on the original album. And while we're on the subject of CD reissues, does anyone understand how Amazon decides to price their CDs? I saw 2 titles I wanted last night ("The Best of Lillo Thomas" and "Nona Hendryx's Greatest Hits") and wondered if the listed prices were a typo or a joke: $75 and $99 dollars?

[Videoskooter]

Originally Posted by Graham_Start

For a lot of this music, even 5 years after it came out, it was assumed that nobody would ever want to hear it again.

And they were wrong!!!

Since many shops over here are getting loads of vinyl, I restarted filling the missing works in my collection with the real thing. Most of them are in pretty good shape and I've found a lot of stuff that was simply unavailable on CD.

But the fact is that although some releases on CD are excellent. Others clearly are not (the reasons are already explained). I'm not that bothered with a slightly inferior sound quality when I find something I've been looking 4 for years.

What really horrifies me is the fact that some of 'em have rerecorded versions on them and that it is not mentioned on the booklet. So, I always listen to 'em since I had that experience a few times. It's simply not done! I like the original stuff and the original music!

[paul]

Originally Posted by Graham_Start

Point is, for many disco albums, the master tapes were long ago discarded, destroyed by sticky-tape-syndrome, or vanished with bankrupt labels. For a lot of this music, even 5 years after it came out, it was assumed that nobody would ever want to hear it again.

Graham, you are so right on. I suppose I should fess up and admit to thinking the same way. For the most part I kept most of my stuff but I'm sure many of you remember the attitude around '82/'83. Having disco records wasd like admitting to liking Minni Vanilli, like being Peter denying you know Jesus, etc. It's funny to see now how the interest is still there.
The other day I caught a movie on HBO I think called "Roll Bounce." Centered around roller skating about 1978, it shows again the interest in the greatest music of any era

[paul]

Originally Posted by Videoskooter

What really horrifies me is the fact that some of 'em have rerecorded versions on them and that it is not mentioned on the booklet. So, I always listen to 'em since I had that experience a few times. It's simply not done! I like the original stuff and the original music!

That more than anything else pisses me off too

[Graham_Start]

Originally Posted by ol'skinflint

I always wonder why some CDs are released with less than great sound and packaging...does that mean they were released in a hurry or that whomever released them didn't care very much about quality?

It can be that, or it can simply be a case of the person in charge not knowing what they're doing. Whoever mastered "Outline" was either a half-deaf veteran clubber and/or had a horrible monitoring system.

Originally Posted by ol'skinflint

And while we're on the subject of CD reissues, does anyone understand how Amazon decides to price their CDs? I saw 2 titles I wanted last night ("The Best of Lillo Thomas" and "Nona Hendryx's Greatest Hits") and wondered if the listed prices were a typo or a joke: $75 and $99 dollars?

Was this from Amazon themselves, or a reseller? Resellers can charge whatever they like...

[ashley_k]

Originally Posted by musiquelover

All in all the sound quality of Soul Brother’s "Groove On Down" compilation is good which made me wonder about the bad sounding exceptions in the first place.
I guess I'd rather have a company omit the inclusion of a song from a vinyl transfer if they're not able to track down a decent vinyl source. The same goes for master tapes. This would prevent disappointment for the customer of their product.

A question I have as a technical amateur:
Is it feasible to combine parts of the same recording from different vinyls without much hassle? If so bad vinyl transfers would be even less excusable.

Personally if they can’t master from a decent copy I’d rather them omit a track from a CD, Soul Brother should have been able to find a better copy of Young & Company to master from, but I guess it comes down to a slight lack of care and attention to detail, which is a shame.

It is possible to use two different records and combine them together, as long as you are using pressing from the same stampers it's not do difficult, but you could run into all sorts of problems, if say you were trying to combine different pressing/versions from around the world although it’s still possible to do, just not that straight forward.

Unfortunately I think the reason why we get CD with tracks that have odd clicks/pops in them is probably down to the time and costs involved, it’s easy for me to transfer tracks from vinyl, take out any clicks/pops and burn them to CD, all it costs me is some free time, but if you are a record label and you have to start paying professionals to do audio restoration then costs of producing a CD start to rise quickly, even if you only need to take out a few clicks/pops the costs soon mount up.

[ashley_k]

Originally Posted by Graham_Start

Unidisc uses horrible EQ (their release of Gino Soccio's "Outline" will make your ears bleed... roll off the highs by 6db and it's *still* bright)

I think the problem with some over bright and thin sounding CDs (like the Unidisk CDs) maybe that the problem is tape pre-emphasising, if at some point the original master tapes have been transferred over to DAT tapes as a lot were in the late 80’s and early 90’s.

The over bright and thin sound is caused by some early DAT tape machines (Teac and Casio in particular) they pre-emphasised the tape during recording (pre-emphasis is a type of top boost used during recording, which is reversed upon replay, providing a degree of noise reduction – kind of like Dolby), but if these tapes are simply copied in the digital domain without first being de-emphasised, they will sound bright and thin.

So you can easily end up with an over brightly mastered CD, if someone is not aware of this and just drops an old DAT into a new DAT machine.

Check this link out for more technical info on and the pitfalls of dealing with digital recorders and masters:
http://www.rogernichols.com/EQ/EQ-2003-07-08.htm

Originally Posted by Graham_Start

Point is, for many disco albums, the master tapes were long ago discarded, destroyed by sticky-tape-syndrome, or vanished with bankrupt labels. For a lot of this music, even 5 years after it came out, it was assumed that nobody would ever want to hear it again.

I did hear a story that Westend Records after a number of years, just re-used the studio tapes of older releases on new releases just to save money on buying new tapes, not sure if this is true but I would not be too surprised if it is – it may just be an Westend Records urban myth.

[musiquelover]

Originally Posted by ashley_k

Unfortunately I think the reason why we get CD with tracks that have odd clicks/pops in them is probably down to the time and costs involved, it’s easy for me to transfer tracks from vinyl, take out any clicks/pops and burn them to CD, all it costs me is some free time, but if you are a record label and you have to start paying professionals to do audio restoration then costs of producing a CD start to rise quickly, even if you only need to take out a few clicks/pops the costs soon mount up.

Then maybe record companies should start hiring those disco enthusiasts from these boards who are well-versed in vinyl transfers.