What is wrong with obscure songs??

[BrunoRepublic]

On 2002-10-08 18:24, QUINNY wrote:
Graham: I can't believe that there are not THOUSANDS of bands releasing product in the U.S.

When was the last time you were over for a visit?

It's so easy and damned cheap, to make your own CD these days. And any band with reasonable savvy can promote themselves very effectively, albeit to a smallish audience.

Evidently you are completely unaware of the realities of the (North) American marketplace. There are virtually no outlets for independent product, and no way for it to reach the public to judge. Almost all shopping is done through the same sterile chains, or "big box" retailers, all of which only carry the product of The Big Five. How's this for a fun statistic: More than HALF of all books and reocrds sold in the USA are sold through Wal-Mart. Since I suspect you've never been to an American Wal-Mart store, I'll tell you that although these stores are massive in size, their music and book departments are miniscule. Each would have no more than a couple of hundred titles at any time. The dedicated music retail chains aren't much better.

Why do you think the major stores only stock so many items.

Because they are all a part of the same corporate machine, and it serves their interests to keep new players out.

Back in 1979 I doubt if there were more than 1200 albums released in the UK in a year. There's probably at least 5 times that amount of albums released now.

In terms of widely distributed releases, I would be willing to bet that the opposite has occurred over here. Anyway, as I've stated before, I am only discussing the realities of North America. Unlike you, I don't make sweeping generalizations about places I'm not familiar with. I have only been to two countries in my life, namely Canada and the USA -- so my experiences will naturally apply only to those. I could go on about the differences between the US and UK, like the UK having a much bigger music press which thrives on making and breaking new acts, how singles are essentially extinct in the USA, how the UK retailing world is vastly different from the US... but I've never even been to the UK, and I don't like arguing based on perceptions and whatever factoids I've come across.

" You like Andean nose flute, with a mix of afroeuropean jazz funk, tinged with opera? Certainly sir, I have just the CD for you right here". Maybe exaggerated ,but I.m sure you get the essence of what I'm trying to say.

This is simply not the case over here. Look, come over to Canada or the USA and see for yourself. WE HAVE NO SUCH CHOICES. It is all the same pre-fab blandfill. All the record labels, radio/TV stations, and music retailers are owned or controlled by a handful of corporations. They have no interest in promoting anything new or unusual. Most cities have no "local" music scene to speak of. There is no huge flood of new releases in the stores -- there is less and less being put out every year. After all, they can push the same tired "classic rock" albums a lot easier than trying to come up with a new hit.

Everything is niche driven now.

No, here it's target-market driven. The intended focus group is given far more thought than the actual product. Nobody is even trying to make decent music anymore, it's all about "branding" now. This is the real problem. When music no longer respects the audience, the audience will no longer respect the music.

Now Quinnykins, I just know you'll post a reply, because you just HAVE to have the last word. So, skip over all my relevant points, and post some more wide generalizations without any facts to support them. Go ahead, make my day...

[zeca azevedo]

On 2002-10-07 13:00, QUINNY wrote:
Can no-one see the fundamental difference between someone who bought a record 20 years ago paying full price, with the intention of playing it in a discotheque to make people dance, who then might want to buy the record themselves and........; someone who picks them up cheaply now solely for their (A) CHEAPNESS (B) THEIR POSSIBLE BRILLIANCE (C) FOR THEIR OBSCURITY VALUE. Can't you see why telling me how brilliant these records are rings ever so slightly hollow? Can A Man Come In And Do The Popcorn?

Hey Quinny,

I'm a little late on this topic, but I want to say a few things here. First, I simply can't understand why the hell you think people are buying obscure music ONLY for the reasons you've listed above. Sometimes, rare records are NOT CHEAP, you know? So, you can't say people are buying "obscure" music just for the cheapness of the record. Second, we cannot say that a record is brilliant if we don't know it, don't you think? The fact that a song is obscure does not mean that the song is COMPLETELY unknown. Third, you can say that some guys buy rare records only for its rarity, but you can't say that EVERY guy who buys rare records are thinking only about the obscurity value of the record. Me and some of my friends buy rare records just for THE MUSIC.

One more thing: today I bought nine original CDs of rare, "obscure" 60's and 70's brazilian music. EMI records released this week a wonderful collection with 45 classic albums of brazilian music to celebrate their 100th anniversary here in our country. Maybe it's obscure music for some, but not for everybody - it has historical and artistic value. It's beautiful music and it's an important part of our cultural history. Here's a case of a major record company doin' a great job - putting classic records on the market again with remastered sound, restored artwork and a nice price. There's lots of fans of brazilian music in the world who will buy this "obscure" music very fast -not for its obscurity, but for the beauty of it.

zeca azevedo

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: zeca azevedo on 2002-10-08 23:10 ]</font>

[jazz_pilgrim]

I would like to add a couple of points to the debate.

Firstly, Quinny, did you carry on listening to Radio 2 after Norman Jay's show last week? Because if you did, you would have heard Paul Gambacinni's last programme in the series What's Going On and he was taking a look at the state of North American radio. And the situation is exactly as Graham stated. Artists with a new record have to tour all the big US stations doing promos etc - just to get their record played on the radio!! A couple of Amercian artists came to the UK and could not believe how different the situation was over here. We are lucky over here.

Fyi folks, Paul Gambaccini is a UK-domiciled American radio DJ who makes a lot of programmes on the US music scene, and has been doing this for many years. He is our "window" on your US music scene!! :grin:

Secondly, Quinny quoted that "music sales were on the way down overall" Another unsubstantiated generalisation. Fact: Official recorded sales of CDs in the UK showed that in 2001 there was a 7% RISE over the previous year to 216 million units - AN ALL-TIME HIGH. Sales of vinyl also INCREASED by 15%.

Thirdly, Quinny's coming out with a sweeping generalization like "obscure = mediocrity" is just plain naive and lacks common sense. As Graham has clearly pointed out, such an argument falls at the first hurdle.

Finally, we have had all these MP3 theiving arguments a few months back. My conclusion then was: record companies have a lot to answer for as I think they have been very bad to black music (including disco music) fans over the years. But they are very good at catering for the new "tweenage" market, as these sort of children have real purchasing power for the first time. I think each individual music fan should be listened to by the record companies, but clearly he (or she) is NOT. Ignore us at their peril!

And one day these companies will learn the old, old saying to their cost: "You can't buck the markets!" Even our government in 1992 had to learn that painful lesson! And look at how many blue chip companies have gone down in this post-industrial age - just because they didn't follow the markets!
Power to the individual! Music for the people! :grin:










_________________
If it moves - funk it!!

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jazz_pilgrim on 2002-10-09 02:37 ]</font>

[originalbigm]

Graham you couldn't be more correct in your perspective,I haven't listened to radio for a long time.The music is lame and choice is limited not to mention repetitive.As you recall there was a long campaign to get a dance music station for the Toronto area.It went on for over a decade with all sorts of proposed formats.We finally got one a couple of years back and where is it today.Gone country.Why because it's format sucked big time.All it catered to was the teen market and rappers.
And on the topic of obscurity= mediocrity I'd like to point out that a lot of good disco records became obscure due to the fact that they couldn't crack the top 40 lists in those days as they had to compete with the all rock and pop formats that were being carried
on the music stations of the day.As I recall you'd only see 3-4 new songs added each week on the top 40 AM formats.FM music was either rock,jazz or adult contemporary.So the only place to hear and groove to dance/disco was at the clubs.Now here arose another problem most clubs had their established playlists and rotation.Even though we were receiving dozens of new songs every week at the record pool it was impossible to fit them all in your nightly format.Now mind you some were terrible,others were good and a few were great so you tried introducing these somewhere in your preconceived format.Since most clubs were busiest Thurs, Friday and Saturday you in essence had only three nights to get your new songs out to the majority of people.Then you'd receive a new batch of records from the pool the following week and songs that you hadn't had a chance to introduce the previous week had to be lumped in with the new batch.It is easy to see that some songs never got the exposure they deserved and became obscure.Surely this didn't make them mediocre.They were victims of circumstance.I bet that each and every member here can search their record collections and pull out atleast a dozen good to excellent dance/disco tunes whether they be 7" or 12" singles or LP cuts that given the exposure and chance would have made it.

[QUINNY]

We will never agree so let's call it a day. I can't see the point of going round in circles.

[QUINNY]

[quote]
On 2002-10-09 02:30, jazz_pilgrim wrote:
I would like to add a couple of points to the debate.

Secondly, Quinny quoted that "music sales were on the way down overall" Another unsubstantiated generalisation. Fact: Official recorded sales of CDs in the UK showed that in 2001 there was a 7% RISE over the previous year to 216 million units - AN ALL-TIME HIGH. Sales of vinyl also INCREASED by 15%.

According to my industry figures GLOBAL music sales were down 5% last year and were down 5.4% in 2000, although G.B.and France together with India, China and Russia reported increases.

[jazz_pilgrim]

Going back to Blax's thread on obscure music, one aspect that always intrigues me are previously unreleased records that suddenly see the llight of day! Quite often on a "Best Of" compilation. Some of these tracks are very good!

Take the "Best Of Marvin Gaye" Cd that was released late last 2001 - it contained Marvin's previously unreleased version of "Where Are We Going" from 1972 - and what an excellent tune it is too! Unfortunately, worth buying the whole CD for the new track!

I mentioned in another thread I have heard that at Warners a new Donny Hathaway compilation is in the pipeline that will contain no less than ten unreleased tracks on it, one of them being really good!...And there are also unreleased tracks from Chaka Khan that have been discovered...

I was told that the record companies do not know the full extent to which unknown tracks are lying in the vaults. The Donny Hathaway ones were only discovered by chance...

There was a radio prograsmme last Christmas that concentrated on some of these records, and the reasons why they were never released. In some cases the artists were producing so many songs that they put some aside which then were forgotten.

Discodisk - I guess this is your territory - I would be interested to hear your comments!

So I am sure that there are still great many obscure records out there, never released, waiting to see the light of day... And I , for one, am looking forward to getting my hands on them!! :grin:

Anybody else finds these unreleased gems from the vaults to be of interest??

[BrunoRepublic]

On 2002-10-09 07:52, QUINNY wrote:
According to my industry figures GLOBAL music sales were down 5% last year and were down 5.4% in 2000, although G.B.and France together with India, China and Russia reported increases.

Okay, so in the UK, where hapless consumers are overwhelmed by choices, CD sales are up.

In the US, where selection and diversity are dwindling, sales are down.

You're right, Quinny; there's no need to argue. You're proving my claims for me. :razz:

[QUINNY]

And by blowing raspberry you proved you took it with bad taste. :cry"

[Blaxman]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the colaboration on this topic. I mean, on this issue about Obscure Vs. Hits.

I think now all of us have a clear view of what really matters to the major part of us.

Let's not try to change each others opinion, it's not our purpose. Let's just put our toughts and leave the readers decide who has the better point of view. (It fits to me too, I know.)

Peace

[DeepBeat]

Coming in a little late just to say that the majors are killing the very same business they are trying to protect.

I'd love to see all of them go out of business and watch the music biz start from scratch.

[SandraDee]

[quote]
jazz_pilgrim wrote:

In some cases the artists were producing so many songs that they put some aside which then were forgotten.

-------------------------------------------

I was amazed when I heard that the Jones Girls LP 'Keep It Comin' was only released because Philly had to honour contractual obligations to CBS before they moved to EMI. This LP was IMO brilliant but apparently it was pieced together from several years' worth of unissued music that was surplus to PIR's requirements of the day! If this is an example of what is 'surplus to requirements' what other unheard gems are lying around the record companies' offices/ studios?!

[DanceMan]

[quote]
On 2002-10-11 16:06, Steely Dan wrote:

jazz_pilgrim wrote:

In some cases the artists were producing so many songs that they put some aside which then were forgotten.

-------------------------------------------

If this is an example of what is 'surplus to requirements' what other unheard gems are lying around the record companies' offices/ studios?!

Steely....good question!! and the answer is LOTS !!!!

Having been an insider - I remember hearing a lot of things that to this day remain unreleased....Years ago in the early winter of 1977, I interviewed Jacques Morali in his NY skyscraper apartment (for the few who may not know: he was the founder/co-writer/co-producer of the Village People, Ritchie Family, Patrick Juvet, etc....(Phylicia Allen - ugh!)...he played us Life Is Music which was about to be released at the time for TRF along with a myriad of gems that were going to be on their next album and they were out-of-this-world spectacular, I can almost still hear them! Alas..it was not to be.....Granted, African Queens was a fine album....but these songs were more fashioned in the Brazil/Frenesi vein....I often wonder what became of them? Also, Ashford and Simpson have a neat little collection holed up somewhere that they should compile of various artists they produced...one I am certain of are Ms. Ross rejects from the Boss sessions....love to have those bootlegs!...

The list goes on we can all be certain.

[Blaxman]

Hey Danceman,

Now, I'm depressed!! :sad:

I would love to hear those gems too!! One day....maybe God help us!

Peace